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Intro
[Un]churned as presented by UpdateAI.

Brittany
If the customer is not adopting, therefore they will not grow. So really just making sure we’re working simultaneously so that one is kind of feeding the other so there is that equal investment on both sides.

Intro
Walk Welcome to [Un]churned a show about the leaders and innovators of companies who have forged incredible customer relationships and stories you can use to advance your own career. Here’s your host, Josh Schachter.

Josh Schachter
Hey, guys. I’m Josh Schachter founder and CEO of UpdateAI in the host of [Un]churned. Welcome to today’s show, and we are recording live. And before I say anything else, I need to apologize to my guest today because we got 10 minutes into this recording and then realized I realized that I hadn’t hit the record button. So without further ado, my apologies to Brittany Rodriguez, the sales team manager@monday.com And Dan Ennis, the scale Team manager@monday.com. And we want to learn more about what scale team means it does fall within customer success. If you haven’t heard of monday.com Well, I don’t know where you’ve been $5 billion market cap company, one of the leading players in the cloud based work management software space founded about 10 years ago in 2012, and headquartered in Israel, and now with over 1000 employees worldwide. With that one more time. I’m sorry for not hitting record, Dan and Brittany, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having us. And now I keep darting my eyes over to make sure that I see that red blinking button. But I think we’re good. I think we’re good. So we’re going to talk about the interplay, the exchange the marriage between sales and customer success. It’s such a, such a sacred part of of go to market had so many SaaS companies. And Dan had written an article weeks ago for CS insider, which is one of our favorite customer success publications about that about the relationship and maybe some misconceptions that customer success team individuals and professionals have about sales. So we’re gonna get into all that. I want to start out by warming up here and getting to know Dan and Brittany. So again, Dan Ennis scale Team manager@money.com. Dan, where were you born? And where do you live now?

Dan
I was born and raised and still live in the San Francisco Bay Area traveled a bunch but couldn’t imagine living anywhere else.

Josh Schachter
Why can you not imagine living anywhere else than SF, not many other places I

Dan
can think of where I don’t have to deal with triple digit weather consistently, but also get to go outside and my shorts in November.

Josh Schachter
I lived in Los Angeles for 10 years now I’m in New York City. And that’s that I get to. That’s a job. I feel like for me, because I missed that weather so much. When did you start monday.com

Dan
started up monday.com. Just over two years ago, in August of 2020.

Josh Schachter
What was the best day that you’ve had on monday.com? For me, the

Dan
best day that I’ve had on monday.com has to be the day we hit IPO which was just a great day to celebrate and look back on all the accomplishments of not just the team, my mom, but everybody@monday.com and celebrate together.

Josh Schachter
Brittany Rodriguez, Sales Team Manager, where were you born? And where do you live now?

Brittany
Through and through New Yorker. I was born and raised here in New York and now living in LA City, Long Island City in New York.

Josh Schachter
When did you start Monday?

Brittany
I started with Monday in October of 2019. To just about to come up on three years now.

Josh Schachter
And what’s the highlight of your experience? working@monday.com?

Brittany
Definitely similarly to Dan, I would say the IPO right, the amazing milestone, seeing all the hard work come to fruition. It was an absolutely amazing and incredible day,

Josh Schachter
I can only imagine how cool that would be to be part of such a high growing company and be on center stage on a day like that. That’s awesome. Brittany, what do you love the most about your customer success counterparts?

Brittany
I would say the amount of investment that they really take into understanding a customer’s internal organization, how they work and function and really making sure that we can add value to their day to day. And Dan,

Josh Schachter
I feel like I’m was the guy in the middle of a wedding. I’m moderating I’m with the vows here but between the bride and groom, Justice of the Peace, baby but and then what do you love the most about your counterpart sales?

Dan
I would say absolutely. It’s the way that they actually do provide that value for our customers. It’s the way that the sales team that works well like ours does here on monday.com is identifying those ways to help a customer achieve even more with Monday through those strategic expansions to the right teams to the right players so that they can actually accomplish even more.

Josh Schachter
Okay, good. I’m glad we’re all starting on the right footing here and Lovey Dovey, we’re gonna get into some of the reasons that CES and sales can’t live with each other can’t live without each other. Let’s set some context. So first off, and I want to understand the team structures within the sales and the scale team. At monday.com, and the KPIs for each of your teams, I think is really important to understand that as a foundation for alignment. So Dan, why don’t you start? First of all, tell us what is the scale team? How is it structured? And what metric do you guys live by?

Dan
Absolutely so@monday.com, the scale team is part of our broader customer success organization. And we work with our long tail of customer. So all of the customers that fall below a certain ARR threshold, regardless of company size. So we work closely with teams like Brittanys, which is a mid market side, or some of the enterprise teams, regardless of company size, to help them increase their adoption, because once they cross a certain error threshold, they get a more high touch, Customer Success experience. So the scale name comes from the way that we deliver that customer success, value and experience at scale to this long tail of customers. So a larger volume, lower arr. And so the metrics that we are most often measured on really are certain key adoption metrics that show the utilization that customers have, and using Monday to accomplish their goals. And then of course, revenue retention,

Josh Schachter
I think scale team has a much nicer ring to it than the long tail team.

Dan
But agree. Yeah,

Josh Schachter
yeah, I love it. I love that you’re delivering value all the way across the different segments, I’m sure that’s a big component of the company’s success. Britney, tell us a little bit about the sales team that you’re within I’m sure there’s different types of sales groups, and teams. So tell us about your function and the KPIs that drive your daily goals.

Brittany
Yeah, so I specifically oversee the mid market account management group here in North America, and specifically, the account managers are focused on really being a strategic partner to their customer. So working through all the commercial aspects of the relationship, but also identifying, nurturing and growing those relationships. So whereas CES is focused on the adoption and engagement, really, the two are working together to complement and make sure that the customer is getting the most value, and really being able to grow that long term partnership.

Josh Schachter
Awesome. Then, as I referenced a few weeks back, you wrote a great piece for CES insider, it was called Four myths that could be hurting your relationship with sales. We all know, again, a constant kind of love, and then sometimes tension between the two functions. But at the end of the day, we know we cannot exist without each other. So I want to go through each of these different points. And you know, really kind of go back and forth and chat it out and see what we think the first myth was that sales reps over promise on the product and on customer success. I mean, that seems to make sense to me. Why would you not over promise if you’re sales trying to land a deal? But Dan, why don’t you tell us a little bit about what you mean by that what you hear on the streets of customer success and what that myth means to you?

Dan
Absolutely. So it’s not uncommon, when customer success managers and various different organizations, I’ve heard this anywhere I’ve been where a customer will maybe come on board, and it will seem that maybe they’ve had misaligned expectations around what it is that the product can do, or what it is that the customer success team can do for them instead of working with them, for example. And so whenever a customer would come on board with a misaligned expectation like that, it’s not uncommon for a CSM to then go and just assume that this must have been because sales was just trying to over promise to get a deal across the line, or they make these assumptions about why they’re encountering the situation that they’re encountering.

Josh Schachter
Yeah, I mean, that seems to make sense to me. So certainly what’s going on here, I mean, sales folks just over promising,

Brittany
I would say, I think in some instances, what ends up happening is that the sales reps could potentially be early on in the conversation where they’re really siloed away from what the customers actual use case and workflow is like. So they might have different expectations when they’re actually, you know, potentially in the weeds on the workflow and working through it with the customer success manager. That’s why I think something that we really try to emphasize is having a really clear understanding of the needs and expectations and making sure expectations are set on both sides.

Josh Schachter
How do you do that? So you’re, you’re in your sales process? Like, what is that? What What’s that playbook look like? What’s the sales playbook look like of really, you know, vetting out the needs and expectations first, and then secondly, let’s talk about how that might transition over to the CSM later on.

Brittany
Yeah, I think one big piece of it is if a customer is explaining that they’re specifically and you know, let’s say a marketing department, we have a creative process. Awesome. That sounds great. But let’s dive into that. What does that actually mean for you? How do you actually operate internally? What are the different teams and departments that you’re touching? And how do you plan on operating with them as we transition to a new platform, so I think really getting the weeds in the weeds with them understanding their day to day and how they operate, and being able to translate that information over to the customer success manager. That way, once they’re hands on with the customer, they already kind of have an idea of what’s their day to day like now and how do we translate that into getting value into Monday?

Josh Schachter
So monday.com What does that transition look like of that needs based assessment going from sales to see us for either of you if you want answer,

Dan
there’s a super detailed a handover that’s created, as well as usually a meeting to communicate that before ever working with the customer directly. So the sales team puts together a really detailed description of what that use case is, and really of helping describe what it was that went into the buying process what it is if the customer has communicated their goals are with the product, so that even though there will eventually be a kickoff where the customer is reiterating their goals, in their own words, when they’re working with someone in the customer success team, it’s not being presented as we’ve never heard your goals before. It’s this is something that the sales team has highlighted that you mentioned. And I think what that helps also create from a customer success perspective, is if there’s ever a disconnect, and allows the customer success team to be able to help break down silos by providing that feedback to the sales team, because then you’re able to highlight, okay, this is something that came up after the sale that the customer maybe didn’t mention during the sales process. So that’s something that’s able to help kind of close the loop on that, because then the sales team is aware of another stone Dawn term, which has been fantastic to see the way they are so helpful with that.

Josh Schachter
Where does that communication live? You mentioned a meeting is that so in addition to meeting? Well, first of all, is there a certain playbook you follow for the meeting? But in addition to that, is this a Slack thread? Is this a table on Monday? Is this a confluence page, like what tell us a little bit help me get a little bit of help me mad, imagine some of these artifacts here for this transition

Dan
that lives within our CRM within Salesforce, which we use. And so it’s an actual handover artifact that’s there. And it’s an object that’s created there, and has all of the details, including you know, who the champion is, who’s going to be working on the account, who to include in some of those initial components, what potential concerns they see that the account might have when it comes to rolling out. And so they do a lot of different information to help give as much context as possible to the CSM, to be able to have something that’s documented, that’s more than just a slack. It’s gonna get lost somewhere, but it lives somewhere that’s easily re referenced and gone back to in the future.

Josh Schachter
The second myth is that sales reps don’t care about what customer success managers need. What did you mean by that, then?

Dan
Absolutely. So I’ve been in prior orgs, especially where the perception is, if I’m not getting what I need, information wise, that context I just outlined, that’s a rare thing that I’ve seen that Monday does really well. But I’ve been in orgs, where that isn’t there. And a CSM might feel like I’m going in blind into working with a new customer. And the assumption similar to before is, if I don’t have it must be because sales doesn’t care what I actually need to be successful. They’ve closed the deal, they’ve passed the hot potato. That’s all they care about.

Josh Schachter
And it goes back to what you were saying before. I think the reason that monday.com does it well, is you have that ritual of transitioning over. Bernie if anything else to add there about? I mean, does sales care about customer success? I imagine I’m setting you up to say yes, of course.

Brittany
Yeah, absolutely. I think especially on the account management side, right. I think in order for us to be able to grow and scale with an organization, there has to be that synergy of both the am and the CSM really being in the weeds on how this organization operates. You know, what’s the different ways that they’re buying technology internally? What are their goals, whether it be things at the organization level, or, you know, reasons why they purchased Monday and making sure that we’re really honing in on that, I think it’s a really nice relationship between the account managers, and the CSM is where they’re both equally invested in knowing as much as possible about these accounts, to be able to even grow them and retain them long term.

Josh Schachter
And that’s because it sounds like you guys are also incentivized for the growth beyond the initial sale, but the expansion within the account, is that correct?

Brittany
So on the account management side, they’re specifically KPIs on the revenue growth of the accounts are really focusing on getting in with new teams departments, expanding existing footprints as well. Got it. So

Josh Schachter
Dan has a team leader of customer success, scale success. What can you do so that your team doesn’t have this misconception? Misconception, you know about sales not caring about? So? Yes,

Dan
absolutely. One of the things I would say is to break down those silos, which can happen organically just by being open with various sales reps, if someone’s not getting something that they think they need, it’s almost never due to not caring or almost never due to actual mal intent, but it’s because sometimes they just don’t know what it is that the CSM needs in that case. And so a CSM can really go a long way in helping get past that myth that they’re believing by simply communicating next time, this would be helpful to have. And a lot of times sales reps that I’ve worked with are so open to that kind of feedback because they care about for the reasons that Brittany already outlined. They’re incentivized to care about the long term success of customers as well.

Josh Schachter
Is there anything that you most commonly find yourself saying next time, this would be nice to have

Dan
previously in payrolls? Not as much here because there is such a detailed handover process that systematizes What I’ve seen previously be much more maybe ad hoc, it would be more information around the customer’s actual use case that we’re trying to solve. To get in prior roles have gotten a lot more transactional. Fill information who players are a few things like that, but not necessarily that full detail about their circumstance that I think is so crucial that sales is providing here on Monday. The context

Josh Schachter
the pain points, the use cases that makes sense, not just the superficial stuff.

Intro
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Josh Schachter
Hey, guys is Josh quick interlude here, if you’re like me, you buy the garden hose on amazon.com that has the most ratings and reviews. So please smash those rating stars for the unchained podcast wherever you are listening to it. Just like update AI. This podcast is a startup in its own right. And it’ll help others discover it. Go ahead right now. I’ll be here when you get back.

Bernie, is there any information that you commonly find yourself wishing, hoping that you’d get more from customer success?

Brittany
Yeah, I think and I kind of we’ll get into it a little bit later on. We’re talking about the challenges. But I think one thing that we really tried to emphasize here is just making sure that although the CSMs are focused on adoption usage, the account managers are working on the growth and expansion like continue to feed each other information as you’re learning more about the business and how the business is moving. Meeting new people within the organization, making sure that there’s that clear line of communication, you’re always keeping each other updated on what’s going on with that company so that you can really align on you know, what’s going to be our renewal strategy, what’s going to be our long term growth strategy and making sure that we’re really in the weeds on these accounts,

Josh Schachter
just like a Salesforce integration, keeping it bi directional. So we’re gonna really stick it to sales here, the Myth number three sales reps don’t care about customers, they only hear about coming in at the 11th hour to close deals, you know, get that piggy bank registering while we’re really really casting some shadow shade on you guys. Brittany, why do you think sales teams might have that there might be that misconception about sales,

Brittany
I think a bit of it may go along with that first initial myth of you know, perhaps they’re moving quick within dealer talking to one specific stakeholder and that it ends up moving forward. Now we have different stakeholders that are involved in the actual day to day process. But I will say a lot of what we see at Monday is that the sales reps are not afraid to walk away if they know it’s not a good fit for the customer, they’re willing to one dissect whatever that use case and need is and really understand, is this actually something that makes sense? Is this actually a good fit, and making sure that they’re able to really work with the CSP counterparts on this, I would also say to something that we often see is although the CSM is directly our KPI and on retention and renewal, even though the account managers are more so focused on the growth, if the customer is not adopting, therefore they will not grow. So really just making sure we’re working simultaneously so that one is kind of feeding the other. So there, is that equal investment on both sides?

Josh Schachter
I’m gonna put you on the spot in a loving way. Can you think about the last time that you turned down a customer and in a redacted way? Share that with us? Yeah,

Brittany
actually, we’re, I’m going through something now with one of the reps on my team, where they’re currently working with the customer. And the customer is really trying to, you know, lean into this specific need, and we’re really working with them to make sure is this something that makes sense based on your need? So I would say that it’s definitely something that we really try to hit home on is, is the need there? And does it make sense for us to go forward with this? Does it make sense for the customer? Does it make sense for you know us in the relationship that we’re working with them on? And also, as we’re working with our CS counterparts? Is this something that’s going to potentially impact them as well? How is that

Josh Schachter
perceived to your sales leadership and the sales executives? Is that is everybody hunky dory with that? Or do you get any pushback when they see that there was this missed opportunity?

Brittany
I would say overall, the culture at Monday is very much thinking about customer. First, it’s never thinking about revenue versus it’s always is this a good fit for the customer? Are we thinking about their needs? Are we thinking about the value that we’re going to be able to provide for them?

Josh Schachter
Then when you were writing this piece here, sales reps don’t care about customers only coming in at the 11th hour to close deals? So nasty? What were you thinking there?

Dan
I was thinking exactly where what Brittany was just alluding to, it’s really just that idea that I’ve seen in prior roles. I’ve not seen it as much here again, where a sales rep have closed a deal. And then a CSM might feel like I don’t know where this sales reps gone. I don’t know how I can rely on them for anything afterwards, or I don’t know what I can do to work with them going forward or how it is if they’re going to add value for a customer here.

Josh Schachter
That’s interesting. You know, I

suppose I hadn’t really thought about this until you just mentioned that. There’s this undercurrent of trust that needs to be built between the two teams and the personalities right because if you get burned once with that, And then that corrodes that trust. And next time, you, you might be a little bit more uncertain about the fit of the customer coming in. So do you guys do anything in general that that you think is particularly special, whether it’s a ritual or just to a culture, our cultural attitude, to build trust between the two teams.

Dan
From my perspective, I don’t know that there’s a ritual necessarily. I would say, though, that it is a culture that’s built into that, whether it’s the fact that it’s something that’s created top down where I think that one big component is, and I’ve heard this in other orgs. And I’ve never felt it here. And I was actually just talking about it with a colleague this morning, where it has never come across that sales views, CSS, just some sort of assistant or just some sort of second hand even on these big wins that are big wins for sales across the board. And then maybe this is more of a ritual than I realized it’s behind the scenes that I don’t see it on the sales team. But the sales team makes a point to give just as big of a shout out to any CSM involved on the account and highlight the specific ways that a CSM enabled that growth path. So we make what might typically seem like a win for one team really be celebrated as a team team when because we know that SAS is a team sport. And so that trust is built in part by sharing in the wins there and advocating for those situations, even when they’re not directly measured on it, like Brittany mentioned. Sure account management isn’t directly measured on retention. But when CSM is reached out saying, Hey, I’ve got someone go dark, is there a way you can try to connect me with another contact? I’ve never once seen a situation where an AMA has said, That’s not my problem. At worst, they’ve said, Well, if you’ve exhausted all my contacts to let me know who you want me to reach out to, but they will the idea is they’re promoting this from an aspect of this is a team sport. We’re in this together working towards those same goals.

Brittany
Yeah, absolutely. Echo, Dan, and that I think we’ve built in a really amazing culture here where it’s absolutely a partnership. It’s not you’re operating in your silo with this account. And I’m operating in mind, I would say more often than not, whenever we’re talking about wins and even losses, the account managers on the team are always talking to and always speaking to the absolute amazing CS team that we have, and all the hard work that they’ve really put into the account makes sense.

Josh Schachter
Sales teams don’t add any value to the customer success team. That sounds really depressing. That’s myth number four dance.

Dan
Absolutely. That is something that has been encountered. And I think it’s really the culmination of the prior three months right and all culminates in a CSM feeling frustrated, like this team doesn’t provide any value for me, at most, at best, isn’t that neutral at worst and active hindrance. And that’s really, you can see all these other three myths snowball into, therefore they just don’t add any value for what my team needs is where somebody can take that perspective and believe that myth,

Josh Schachter
what way have they added the most value? Or what are some of the ways that come to mind where they are the most value?

Dan
There’s a few different ways for me, I think that are really helpful. Number one, they really free up CSMs to focus on what they are best at. And when I know Britney will talk in a little bit about rules of engagement. But when the rules of engagement are clearly defined, and sales is operating in their strengths, it frees CSM to focus on their strengths. The CSM doesn’t have to focus on a commercial aspect of the relationship which they might not be good at, they might be really good at relationship building, and encouraging adoption, but not have the strength in the commercial side, it is so freeing to have a fantastic sales team that will work on that aspect with you and for you, so that you are free to do what you’re good at. And they’re focused on doing what they’re best at. And I think that that value when they’re synergizing. Really lets CSMs thrive and shine at what they most care about and do better.

Josh Schachter
You mentioned rules of engagement. Let’s jump into that. So what does that mean? What is the rules of engagement, you know, another rules of engagement of war, but what what does it mean here in the spectrum of what we’re discussing? Brittany, do you want to jump in on that?

Brittany
Yeah, absolutely. I think a big part of it is just knowing each other’s KPIs how you’re both measured, but then also understanding how do you complement each other? Where is the overlap? What are the different efforts or activities we need to be doing together to be able to make sure that we’re both able to be successful with this account? How are we prioritizing ensuring that we are prioritizing in a way that coincides with benefiting both parties and also benefiting the customer regularly, aligning, planning feeding each other information that will help us be more successful with our path that we’re taking with the customer? And you know, really just understanding who should jump in where and where are the areas that we really need to lean on each other?

Josh Schachter
Do you guys have a documented rules of engagement a 10 commandments, so to speak for the interaction between the two groups?

Brittany
Yeah, I’m really glad you asked that we do. We do use a RACI model here internally for clear distinction between who is responsible versus accountable for the specific customer lifecycle journey. We’ve also developed a ton have really great resources so that it’s really clear on what the KPIs are across each team. What are the specific touch points with a customer? We’re also rolling out account planning. So with the account manager is the customer who access managers, they’re regularly doing account planning and mapping, but really making sure that we’re leaning into doing a lot of that joint effort, right, let’s share knowledge. Let’s see how can we push past bottlenecks or gatekeepers that we might be running into and really making sure that we can plan ahead to be as successful as possible, whether it’s providing value to the customer or being able to expand the partnership.

Josh Schachter
And it’s Brittany Rodriguez, such a happy, functional partnership, I think you guys are gonna make it. Thank you so much for being on today’s episode of unchained. Really appreciate it. And I know our listeners got a lot of value of this conversation.

Brittany
Thanks so much for having us. Appreciate it.

Josh Schachter
Hey, guys, it’s Josh. Don’t hang up. If you enjoyed this episode, you know, even if you didn’t, I’d love for you to give us a rating in iTunes or Spotify. And after you do email me Josh and update that AI with the name of your favorite charity, and my company update AI. We’ll make a donation on your behalf. I’d love to connect with each of our listeners. Send me a LinkedIn request and I’ll accept it immediately. Just go to www.blog.update.ai/linkedin and it’ll redirect my profile. Thanks