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Introduction 0:00
[Un]churned as presented by update AI.

0:07
I’ve had so many friends take time off to be a mother. And they could not find a job after 50. And they were so demoralized. They left tech complete completely. These were women who had big jobs at companies like VMware in the past, and it’s heartbreaking for me that I wasn’t able to help them find that company or that role that would give them a chance. And instead, they were discouraged because they took time off to be a mother. So it’s there many different audiences, but ideally, it’s a CEO, how do I better support women in tech?

Introduction 0:42
Welcome to [Un]churned a show about the leaders and innovators of companies who have forged incredible customer relationships and stories you can use to advance your own career. Here’s your host, Josh Schachter.

Josh Schachter 0:55
Every everybody I’m Josh Schachter, Founder, and CEO of UpdateAI and host of [Un]churned joining me today I’m really excited to introduce to you Emilia D’Anzica, Founder and Managing Director of Growth Molecules and Sabina Pons Operating Partner of Growth Molecules. Both Emilia and Sabina are also the co-authors of Pressing On As A Tech Mom –how tech industry mothers set goals, defined boundaries and raise the bar for success. And um, for those that are watching, they’re holding up the book. It is a wonderful read a quick read, but also just a really nice narrative-driven book, and I really enjoyed going through it the past couple of weeks. So, again, Emilia. Sabina, thank you so much for being on this episode.

Emilia & Sabina 1:41
Thank you for having us.

Josh Schachter 1:43
Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, so as I like to say we call the podcast [Un]churned. Our core audience is customer success. Professionals, and so relates to churn, we want to uninsured. And we also want to keep this conversation uninsured, authentic, raw, genuine. And I want to start out with some quick questions for both you guys to warm up that bus, so to speak. So, Emilia, let’s start with you. Because I think you actually have a really interesting background this sense. Where were you born and raised? Tell us a little bit about your childhood background, since the bulk of this conversation is going to be about family. The balance between family life and working life? Oh, right.

Emilia 2:22
Well, I worked really hard to get rid of my accent when I was young and immigrated to Canada from Italy. I’m one of six children. And my 20s I moved back to Europe and worked in Copenhagen and Rome. And then I met an American. So now I live fast forward 18 years in Sonoma County, California. So you met your

Josh Schachter 2:44
husband in Europe, is that hearing that correctly, and you moved with him back to the States?

Emilia 2:50
No, he was trying to find an apartment in San Francisco from Oklahoma. And I was in Rome trying to find an apartment. And so we met thinking about becoming roommates. But instead we got married. That’s gonna

Josh Schachter 3:04
be for the other podcast about relationships that we run. That sounds like a really interesting story. There’s, there’s, there’s two parts to being a tech mom. The first part is being in tech. And the other part is being a mom. So tell us a little bit about those two parts for your life. Emilia.

Emilia 3:23
I didn’t plan on becoming a tech mom. I grew up in a pizzeria with my my parents and all my siblings working behind the counters, picking the vegetables and fruit for the restaurant. But I took a road trip to California after I graduated from the University of British Columbia, and stumbled on the tech scene of 99 in San Francisco and just fell in love with Silicon Valley. And so I started my career here and customer success didn’t exist. I was a project manager got PMP certified, then just really fell into customer success and never looked back. Got my MBA and here I am now three children later, running a customer success consulting firm,

Josh Schachter 4:13
quick plug to your children. So names ages give us a quick background on your motherhood. Yeah.

Emilia 4:19
So when I married my partner, he had an 11 year old son so I instantly became a mom without marriage. And Tyler really taught me patience and what motherhood meant. And then we quickly had a daughter who’s now almost 17 terrifying to think about a Tyler’s now 29 And then l Our youngest is 11 going on 21.

Josh Schachter 4:47
That’s great. So you’ve got nice, balanced age gaps there too. Sabina, tell us about your background. Where were you born raised and a little bit about your your childhood familial life

Sabina 4:59
Absolutely, I was born and raised in Southern California to a, I call it lower middle class family and had a mom who was raised by two immigrant parents, so one from Sicily, and one from Germany. And my mom really believed in the values of the American dream, she saw her parents achieve it. And I think that being the baby boomer, that she is had this philosophy that if you work hard, you could do anything, you could be anything. And as a product of graduating in 2004, from university, getting out to the workforce, it wasn’t quite what I thought it was gonna be, I worked hard, I was well rounded, I did the things, I had the internships, and it was a struggle, it was hard for people to find jobs and made it happen, but then not long after the Great Recession hit. So I think this concept of hard work and upholding your values is important. But that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re going to have an automatic success. So, um, that was really interesting. I’m the oldest of four siblings, I have two younger sisters and a brother and then ultimately got into tech by virtue of having somebody give me a chance. I had to reinvent myself after working in public relations, event planning, and then in advertising. And I was working on a national account. That was a residential homebuilder. And as we all know, 2008, everything crashed. So I took my same and customer experience skills, I was a regional strategic director for the west coast of that advertising agency, and Omnicom firm, and I applied for a job at a tech company, someone thankfully saw something in me gave me the opportunity. And then from there, I worked my way up. And I’m not only grateful for the career that’s followed, but I’m passionate about it, not just gonna pay my bills. But more importantly, I genuinely love the community of customer success. I love the community of being a mom and technology. And I’m really excited to get to be here with you today.

Josh Schachter 7:00
And you were leading ces teams and then joined Emilia on the growth molecule side. Tell us about your kids. Absolutely.

Sabina 7:07
My son is eight years old in third grade. His name is Sawyer and my daughter is named Savannah. She is five and is in kindergarten. So that means it’s one drop off in the morning. So for all you parents out there listening, that’s a big milestone. It’s a fabulous thing to have one location in the morning to make sure both kids show up on time.

Josh Schachter 7:26
Yeah, definitely. I love your kids names, by the way, they’re, you know, they’re not kind of as probably common, right. First thing that comes to my mind is Sawyer named at all after Tom Sawyer? Probably not, but I figured I might as well ask.

Sabina 7:43
There’s another good story behind that if you’d like to hear it quickly.

Josh Schachter 7:46
Sure. Let’s go for it.

Sabinar 7:47
The TV show loss. Yeah, TV show last half. To be honest, I’d like to say it was a flat sophisticated as Tom Sawyer. But no, there was a character on loss that I may or may not have found very attractive. And I just really liked the name.

Josh Schachter 7:58
Emilia, I go back to you for a second here. What’s a favorite activity or pastime that you have or have had with your kids?

Emilia 8:13
Well, I live in Sonoma County. So we’re surrounded by mountains and hiking in nature. So I have to say just being outdoors, and exploring new areas of the county is definitely one of our favorites. Especially during COVID. We had left San Francisco right before I feel it was a savior for very active people who are suddenly being forced to stay in a house together. It was it’s just been really nice to explore the county and have those special conversations that we may not have otherwise, because technology pretty much consumes my my children’s life, like probably all of ours as well. So I think just being outdoors is is our definitely our favorite, whether it’s on bike, or walking. That’s, that’s our favorite.

Josh Schachter 9:05
I mean, you both are so blessed to where you live. Right. Emilia in Northern California, Sabina in Southern California. And you’re right during COVID. Getting outdoors getting fresh air was was such an important thing. So how about yourself, what’s something you really enjoy doing with your kids,

Emilia 9:18
taekwondo, we all practice together. And it’s just, it’s really fun to punch and kick stuff and see their achievements along the way. And with that, the belt system, there’s clear goals to set, there’s a clear path to get there that goes back into my DNA and upbringing. You work hard, you achieve the thing. And so it satisfies that any drive that that seemingly persists in my family of goal setting, and just really fun. I really enjoy it.

Josh Schachter 9:46
That sounds fun. So pressing on as a tech mom, you wrote this book. You published it this past year. I read the book. I don’t know if I’m your ICP, maybe a single white male in his late 30s Is that Emma Okay, well, then let’s we’ll get into that subpoena, what is this book all about?

Sabina 10:05
Ultimately, the purpose of the book was to recognize that there are a lot of us going through this struggle of being a mom and working in technology where it’s not necessarily favorable. And there for those of us who are juggling career and household, and we wanted to encourage women to know that they’re not alone, that you can get into technology, you can stay in technology and thrive, and you can still be the things that you want to be in your personal life, all the other dimensions, who makes Do you Was there

Josh Schachter 10:33
a specific catalyst or trigger for for writing this book that really kind of got you guys going on this journey?

Sabina 10:42
I had the pleasure of meeting Emilia about five years ago, and recognize that she was also a strong female leader in customer success. And then I learned she had three children. And I was even more blown away, because I had this idea that you couldn’t do both, and that the women like, at the time, I was looking up to Marissa Mayer from Yahoo, and knew she had live in nurses and night nannies. And I just wasn’t at that spot where I could financially afford that most people can’t, I didn’t understand how it could be done. And ask them Yulia, she’d mentor me both in my career, and also to help me understand how to navigate both when to pedal to the metal and focus on a career within the course of a day, and then be able to pivot and give yourself the grace to leave early to go to the school play. It was really impactful on so in our conversations talking about that, and all the other stories of women that we knew, we realized there had to be a platform for us to bring that together. There’s a lot of books about women and technology. There are other books about moms and technology. And surely the narrative does apply to more than just mothers that applies to parents. And you talk about the ICP, right? There’s the allies that are interested in supporting us, I don’t know where to start. So I think for us, it was let’s create a narrative that empowers women, their allies, maybe women who are getting out of college thinking about their career path, and might feel overwhelmed, because they hear these stories. They read the stats, right that only 37% of women represent fields in STEM industries. So it’s overwhelming. But the idea is we talk about it, we create visibility, that it will start to impact change, and that by the time our daughters are grown in the workforce, this isn’t even a conversation anymore. There’s no need for a book.

Josh Schachter 12:24
You mentioned Marissa Mayer. That’s actually a name I haven’t heard recently. That’s, that’s really cool to hear you bring her up. She was, I think, what like a top of first 20 employee or something at Google, back during the.com kind of bubble, and really smart, really talented, really successful. And she had this opportunity to become CEO of Yahoo, when Yahoo was still had had a little bit more influence and footprint. And it was a huge role. And she wasn’t that old. I mean, this is this was a woman, I think she was in her lower to mid 30s. She had excelled and she was given us an opportunity to be the CEO of a major major at the time tech company. But I do recall hearing about how, you know she had night nannies, night nurses she was working through all the way through like, what is it like the last day of her pregnancy or whatever, like maybe she even gave birth? In her office? I don’t know. But like she was constantly devoted to her work is the story of Marissa Mayer, and how she was was kind of playing really that dual role. Is that a? Is that a story that we want to aspire? Is that a good thing? Or is that a bad thing? Right? Like is this a story of, of how women are being given this opportunity, and they can demonstrate that mothers really can excel in even the highest levels and the most the most taxing levels of business? Or is actually a story of, of here’s somebody who was forced to, you know, to not be able to spend as much focus time on their children and on on their first, you know, because she was a first time mother, right? So like, what do you take away from the Marissa Meyer Yahoo motherhood story? First of all,

Sabina 14:05
I believe that we’re really fortunate that no one has forced us to do anything that we don’t want to do know that there’s a lot of human trafficking and all kinds of other horrible things that are out there. So I don’t want to make a blanket statement that that’s not something that happens in the US but it happens here and around the world. What I will say is those of us who are fortunate enough to choose the career path that we desire that fulfills us that pays our bills, as I said earlier, is one where there isn’t a right or wrong answer, right if that’s what she truly wanted, and that’s the way she made it work for her then so be it I had this pressure I put on myself I had to breastfeed for a year I had to make homemade organic baby food myself. I could do store bought this idea of them do cloth diapers, because the bleaches and chemicals even in the biodegradable ones were harmful for the baby and bad for the planet because it still took 20 years in the landfill to fully disintegrate. Decompose I realize that some days I haven’t together, I never did the cloth diapers, I realized that was a new mom. idea that for my personal choices wasn’t gonna work. And there’s no judgment one way or the other. And I was my whole my own worst critic. I think that if I wanted to have the kick ass career and climb that corporate ladder faster and sooner and got to a spot where can afford those additional resources than Soviet, like, even now, some of my friends and family say, Okay, well, you move to consulting to have more time with your family. And I’m probably working harder and longer than I ever have. It’s cliche, it doesn’t feel like it’s work because I love it. And I also now I have the flexibility to go when I want to go and do what I want to do, that I didn’t have before. So I took my career by the reins, and I said, You know what, I was aspiring to have this C suite position at the company I was at, I was the only VP female in the company who had a family had children. I was the second only VP in the company that was a female, and ultimately decided, You know what, this, this isn’t, I’m being held back here. And I don’t like that. And there’s something else I can do. That’s just as fulfilling, transparently makes me more money and fulfills my bucket? So to answer your question more succinctly, there’s not a wrong or right answer here. It’s whatever works for the woman, their family, finances her needs, and also her personal fulfillment.

Josh Schachter 16:19
I think what you’re saying is Josh, there’s no like don’t typecast, right? There’s no, there should be no preconceived notions of of motherhood working in tech, right. And it’s, it’s up to each individual woman to forge their own path of what they want, whether that’s, you know, which whichever way that balance of that goes at my last role, actually, Boston Consulting Group, which is, you know, a major international consulting organization, very, very demanding. And there were two women in their 30s, that, that didn’t have a partner and they said, you know, what pack like BCG gives us like the best in the world insurance for covering all this stuff, we are going to go ahead and have the procedures done. And we’re going to, we’re going to be mothers, single mothers as partners, and one of the most demanding consulting companies in the world, and they made it happen. And kudos to BCG actually, for facilitating an environment where they were they could do that without being passed up on, on promotions and those sorts of things. But I get your point, it’s just forge ahead and do what works for you, Emilia? You, I can’t tell whether that was ingest or not, you said I am your ICP. So were you joking? Like, is somebody somebody is a is a is a is a white single male, who may not, you know, be typecast into being the most empathetic figure for motherhood? Is that actually who you were writing to in this book?

Emilia 17:40
Yes. So I see p for not everyone knows our jargon that we’re just assuming everyone’s in CES for marketing. So an ideal customer profile for this book is a CEO, whether you have children or not, if you specially if you’re male, you may not have experienced what women have experienced as a mother. And for women who are thinking about having children, women who are in tech, and either having a difficult time or thinking about leaving, and then women who may have chosen not to have children, or are long paths to having children, and now their kids are out of the house. As you change in your life. Like just even me all my children are now 10 plus sabinas are under 10. We’re going through very different motherhood journeys. And that’s who this book is for just educating humankind, about what mothers are going through in different stages, we interviewed 12 mothers that we feature all in different walks of life with different backgrounds, different partners, or are single mothers and different cultures and, and really show how you can be over 50 and enter tech, I’ve had so many friends take time off to be a mother. And they could not find a job after 50. And they were so demoralized. They left tech complete completely. These were women who had big jobs at companies like VMware in the past, and I it’s heartbreaking for me that I wasn’t able to help them find that company or that role that would give them a chance. And instead they were discouraged because they took time off to be a mother. So it’s there are many different audiences. But ideally, it’s a CEO, how do I better support women in tech? Someone thinking about becoming a mother and then someone who is in the thick of it in the trenches? Really, because some days you do feel like you’re at war. Just completely overwhelmed with what’s happening behind the scenes with your children and then at work at the same time. So this book is uplifting that doesn’t bash anyone. We surveyed over 300 women and share the results. And then we give our own perspective. And we include a chapter on suffering that lack of the or that impostor syndrome. How do you address it? Even this weekend I was with one of my girlfriends. I’m nearing 50. She’s over 50. And she said, Emilia while I’m at this big job at Facebook, and I still feet have impostor syndrome. So this isn’t something that goes away. And our book I hope enables and gives people ideas on how to continue thriving when it’s challenging and tech as a mother.

Introduction 20:36
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Josh Schachter 21:16
Hey, guys, it’s Josh. If you’re like me, you buy the doggie poop bags on amazon.com that have the most ratings and reviews. So please give our podcast a rating or review. It’ll help others discover us go ahead right now. I’ll be here when you get back. Emilia, if there’s something I know about you, it’s that you thrive with numbers. You love numbers, right? You’re the consummate business leader in that sense. That’s a compliment. What are the night and you mentioned interviewing and surveying 300 working mothers? What are the numbers tell us? What what did you guys learn in your research for this book.

Emilia 21:49
So we we did a whole chapter on COVID. And unfortunately, we saw that over a million women left technology. And during that time, it was just completely overwhelming trying to get your child on Zoom, to be on Zoom countless hours, and then have any time for yourself. It was just completely overwhelming. And they left tech, often because women make a lot less money than men. So if you have to choose which one do you choose? Who gets impacted? It’s the nannies, the house cleaners, all the women who are dependent on that income, that suddenly you’re out of a job because the mother is now taking a backseat. The The other interesting thing that I learned when I when we were researching for this book is Why do women get left behind. And even worse, if you’re a woman of color, it’s because early on in a woman’s career, even if we both went to Harvard, me and a man, the man is more likely to statistic over statistics shows to be offered that challenging project that then shows them as the hero at the company. And they quickly climb the ladder that much faster so that by the time they’re 30, a woman is being left behind, then she might take a year off to go take care of a child. And then she’s even even further behind. So this is a systemic issue that we have in our society. And looking at the stats that were published yesterday by Forbes, Sabina shared it on on her Twitter channel 8% 8.8% of the Forbes 500 Are Are women CEOs. So we still have a long ways to go. Why are women why are there 91% of the Fortune 500 led by men and I believe it starts at 22 fresh out of university or 23. If you go get a MBA or go to law school, whatever it is you do, that’s when women are instantly held that by not giving them those challenging projects, when they may not have kids yet, they may not be married yet. They have the exact same degrees as men, but they’re being held back. And so that’s what we really want to change and numbers prove it over and over again, you have to start early in a woman’s career, enabling them so that they’re constantly climbing that ladder at the same rate that men are.

Sabina 24:16
I’d even add one thing to and talk about university, right college degree choices and selections. And what we saw was that after the 80s, there was an increase in women getting into STEM fields of science, technology, engineering and math. Some people now throw a in there too for arts to make it STEAM, essentially, that’s now plateaued and in some regions has actually decreased again, so getting them those degrees, so we can at least start off with the same footing at Harvard and otherwise is a really important thing to

Josh Schachter 24:49
do. foundationally This matters because everybody should have equal rights. There should be equal voting rights. There should be equal working rights, familial rights, that’s just a human prince. All right. That’s why That’s why this all matters. Women should be in working mothers should be treated fairly. But outside of that, why is it important from a business perspective to promote working mothers in tech? How do working mothers make tech better?

Emilia 25:15
I’m sure Sabina and I could go on and on about this, I would say that there are many studies out there that show that companies that have women at the leadership level, and whether you choose to have children or not, I think even if you have a an animal that you take care of, as far as I’m concerned, your parents. And so I would say we need to ensure that we are enabling people, regardless of their choice, regardless of their background, to have an opportunity at the shot at the top that will impact revenue numbers. And there are countless studies out there that show this

Sabina 25:53
piggybacking on that some of the reasons when I’ve gone through diversity and inclusion, equality programs before it’s there’s typically like three to five advantages that studies identify that when you have a diverse representation across not only psychographic and racial demographics, but also in career experiences and career industries, right, not just hiring people who have been CSM before but also hiring people who have potentially come from other industries who are trained as a CSM now that there’s better opportunities for creativity and problem solving. There’s, you know, more innovative ideas that come from that, I’d say there’s, I would venture to say smarter decision making. Because when there’s non diverse teams, there’s about 87% of the time, where there’s wisdom, you know, there’s better results when there’s diverse decision making in a room. And the studies are proven that as well. And then as a result, you’ll see an increase in profits and productivity, and then reduced rates of employee turnover. So when people feel more comfortable and satisfied and inclusive environments, they really are encouraged to stay. And so in this economic time now, where there’s all these phrases of the coins, like the great reshuffle the great resignation, there’s now the great reflection is the newest one I just heard, right? It’s like, what’s that I’m gonna make the right choice here. And when you then have that coupled with sort of economic uncertainty, and then you have, perhaps challenges or they call them when you’re an other, right, your your LGBTQ plus, you’re a female, you’re African American, you’re not a parent, right? There’s also discrimination against people who aren’t parents. I’ve heard now too, it’s like, well, there’s people everybody in the company seems to be having babies, and I’m not so they would get to leave early for soccer practice for their kids, but I don’t, right. So in a row drafted, that speaks to you. But there’s, there’s all these people who are feeling marginalized, and ways that we can encourage that to be abolished is by making sure you have diversity, making sure you have conversations, empowering other people and also investing in your people in terms of education, right, making sure that there’s an avenue for essential skills, so people have the confidence. We teach people in our academy, how to overcome impostor syndrome, how to have the confidence and courage to speak to an executive and tell them no, and still maintain that relationship with that customer in a favorable way. So he goes a few things that we could be doing to help make a difference.

Josh Schachter 28:18
So there is a bright light here and there is a silver lining and that’s there are plenty of women out there that that are role models, and have been successful in balancing their career and their family. The two of you are examples of that. Emilia, how do you manage being a busy successful entrepreneur and motherhood is sort of like the the tips and tricks of the trade. I know you mentioned to us earlier that your kids joke call you a tiger Bob like what is it that that has made you successful across the seas have you set up

Emilia 28:51
the the main things I’ve done are one listen to my body. So yesterday, I just was so mentally and physically exhausted. I went to bed by nine o’clock and didn’t wake up until five, and woke up refreshed and happy and excited about life again. The other thing is making sure I’m constantly asking for help. So my partner doesn’t know exactly like when I need extra help. So I’m constantly asking for help. And I don’t I’m not apologetic about it. This just this is the way things are. And then educating my children early on how to empty a dishwasher. How do we have a we have a farm of vegetables, how to go pick vegetables, so that we can make dinner, how to chop vegetables, those kinds of things that matter so that we can keep our family unified, but also have fun with it instead of me feeling like oh my god, I have to do everything. So I think those have been really important for me and then I tell my assistant this all the time. I tell her Sarah there’s 50 things in your inbox I have 500 but do I look stressed out, no, because I know I’ll eventually get to all of them. But I’m going to do one at a time and do it well. So I think just keeping in mind that you can’t accomplish everything at once prioritize, and be okay with at the end of the day, if you only got through 49 of the 500 tasks you feel like you need to do right now.