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Jon Johnson:

Ladies and gentlemen, that was amazing.

Mickey Powell:

His name is Josh Schechter.

Jon Johnson:

Welcome to

Kristi Faltorusso:

What would the Josh AI version sound like? I see. It’s like a mini robot. Can we just

Jon Johnson:

get Larry David in on the call.

Kristi Faltorusso:

We could. I think that’s expensive, though.

Mickey Powell:

Something inappropriate. Definitely say something inappropriate.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Well, no. No. It would be nice to be

Jon Johnson:

able to cancel.

Jenny Calvert:

No. No. No.

Jon Johnson:

No. No.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Say something that makes everyone on the call feel uncomfortable. It doesn’t necessarily mean inappropriate. Just he’s off he’s right? It it’s uncomfortable being

Jenny Calvert:

Yeah. On a podcast with Josh.

Jon Johnson:

It is.

Mickey Powell:

It’s a

Kristi Faltorusso:

good thing we have really great editing.

Jon Johnson:

I great editing. Thank you to our I’m

Mickey Powell:

doing all this because he’s not here, and we can He’s not here. We can talk all

Kristi Faltorusso:

He can’t defend himself, see? That’s what happens when you don’t show up.

Jon Johnson:

I love it. Well, welcome to another Are we good? Can I do the intro now, Kristi? Welcome to the Welcome to another episode of Customer Success and Bullshit. That. I’m sorry. CS and BS. I am one of your hosts, John William Johnson. I’m the principal customer success manager at user testing. I have been scaling and affecting proper growth with go to market strategies for 10 years, across various industries.

Jon Johnson:

Kristi

Kristi Faltorusso:

Yo, John. When did we decide that we’re gonna be using middle names? I mean, like, I’m here for

Jenny Calvert:

it, but is it just because you have the j and the j?

Mickey Powell:

It’s a Like,

Jenny Calvert:

are you just wanna

Jon Johnson:

It’s called the differentiator, Christie.

Mickey Powell:

He has 3 first names, and I don’t trust him.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Right.

Jenny Calvert:

Right.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Nobody knows. You only have one you have one name. It’s kinda like Madonna. You’re just Nikki.

Jon Johnson:

Nikki. Well but if you look up John Johnson, there’s a whole bunch of them. So John William Johnson.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Is there multiples of John William Johnson? No. Are you sure?

Jon Johnson:

No. I’ve done no fact checking. Hey, Kristi. Who are you?

Kristi Faltorusso:

You don’t know? No. I’m just kidding. Hi, everyone. Thrilled to be back. Kristi Faltorusso, chief customer officer at client success. I’ve spent the past 11, 12 ish years building, scaling, and forming customer success teams in hyper growth b two b companies, and I am now focused on building sustainable success. That’s my new thing. I gotta figure out a way to add sustainable success into my, like, my little tagline.

Kristi Faltorusso:

I gotta fix it.

Jon Johnson:

Are we not doing durable revenue anymore?

Kristi Faltorusso:

I’m not that’s not my that was first

Mickey Powell:

of all

Jon Johnson:

No. I know. I know.

Kristi Faltorusso:

That was never my thing. Blasphemy. You spew hate like that so early in the afternoon. No. My thing is sustainable success.

Jon Johnson:

I like that. Hey, Mickey.

Kristi Faltorusso:

I know you do.

Jon Johnson:

One name.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Just Mickey.

Mickey Powell:

Was that sorry. Was that a question, or you’re just telling

Jon Johnson:

No. Telling me

Mickey Powell:

that I have one name?

Kristi Faltorusso:

Intro.

Mickey Powell:

Hey. Mickey Powell. I had a go to market at UpdateAI. I spent the last 10 years in SaaS, mostly customer success. I did a short stint as an SDR and realized it’s a hard job, and I don’t wanna do it anymore. I’m super excited to be here because I wanna change everything about customer success for the better.

Jenny Calvert:

Alright, Mica. We’re gonna work on your tagline.

Kristi Faltorusso:

This rambling isn’t working for me.

Jenny Calvert:

We gotta just make you, like, the in the the AI. No. We just need to figure

Kristi Faltorusso:

out, like, how you put, like, the AI thing in your tagline where it’s succinct and it feels good.

Jon Johnson:

I’ll go

Mickey Powell:

ask chat gpt Yeah.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Could you please just, like, type in a bunch of things and say, like, give me, like, a 2 line sentence?

Mickey Powell:

Yeah.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Why don’t you work on that while the rest of us are doing a podcast?

Jon Johnson:

So the theme last week was that Nicki didn’t speak, and I would like Nicki to speak this episode. But before we get to that, we have a guest. There’s there’s there’s a person in the room with us. Jenny Calvert, I’d love to get a quick intro on you. How are you?

Jenny Calvert:

Thank you for inviting me. I am pumped to be here. A little intimidated. Christy’s here, and I know it’s gonna get a little we’ve oh, no. No. No. No. No.

Jenny Calvert:

No. No.

Kristi Faltorusso:

We decided based on previous episodes that I it I’m clearly sexist, and I’m only mean to men. So how Well,

Jenny Calvert:

I’m good. That’s what we figured out.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Yeah. So we’re good.

Jenny Calvert:

Well, thrilled to be here. Long time UpToThe AI users. So go back with Nikki and Josh. We are buds. I think I was, like, customer one, so that’s my claim to fame here. Cliz 2? Yeah. I think so.

Mickey Powell:

I yeah. I mean

Jenny Calvert:

I’m taking it. Do we define

Jon Johnson:

how do we know customer?

Jenny Calvert:

You heard it on record here, customer OG number 1. I have been in customer success account management marketing for 15 years. How old am I? I’m not telling, but I just told you. We don’t talk about this. SaaS tech enabled service and services company as I’ve led teams across the globe. Really love to hyperfocus on the human side of customer success. They’re really digging into relationships, employee development, team development, things of that nature. So pumped to be here.

Jon Johnson:

That’s awesome. Yeah. I’m, I’m actually I’m calling in from Seattle, Washington. I’m on-site with a few customers this week. I’m sitting at the Pali Hotel, just outside of Pike Place Market. So there’s a lovely painting behind me that I don’t own, but I might take with me if I can fit it in my, yeah.

Kristi Faltorusso:

You can make anything fit.

Mickey Powell:

Is it your credit card or is it the company’s credit card?

Jon Johnson:

Totally the company’s credit card. Absolutely.

Mickey Powell:

There you go.

Jon Johnson:

Yep. Yep. And I got I think there’s a a a nice little, bathrobe too.

Kristi Faltorusso:

A robe.

Jon Johnson:

That that’s pretty

Jenny Calvert:

good. Yeah. The robe.

Mickey Powell:

Take that Thoma Bravo.

Jon Johnson:

Oh, my God. I’m just kidding, Thoma Bravo.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Please don’t please don’t worry. It’s uncomfortable.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. Well, what is actually, you know, topographical? So, you know, today’s we really just kinda wanted to talk about what what growth looks like for you. You know, this is a pretty broad, Topic, but, you know, the more and more we hear about rifts and and, opportunities for folks that maybe are looking for new roles, but maybe those roles are Being looked at by, like, 2,000 other people on the market. Tell us about the what you’re doing right now. Like, what do you own in your current role, that. And how are you seeing how are you seeing life change with this kind of focus more on lack of specialty and more on generalism?

Jenny Calvert:

Such a loaded question.

Jon Johnson:

You’ve got 2 minutes.

Jenny Calvert:

Oh, 2 minutes. Right?

Jon Johnson:

No. I’m just kidding.

Kristi Faltorusso:

It’s all well known for

Jenny Calvert:

a while. Mickey Erhorn when I go too long winded. I think I have a really unique perspective. So I’m currently in a SaaS spin off of a larger tech enabled service company. So we are in the very early 0 to 1 phase, and all of my customers are venture capital private equity. Specifically,

Jon Johnson:

talent. Bravo. Oh, no.

Kristi Faltorusso:

May or may know there’s some people there that

Jenny Calvert:

are good. Mums the word over here. So, really interesting perspective not only within the customer success space, but around and adjacent to the world of talent, especially talent through the lens of capital deployment. Obviously, we’ve slowed down this year, which means hiring slows. So so you get to see a lot of the foresight of the market before they actually hit and impact the market. One of the things that our platform does is it’s all about this network led. So if you haven’t heard, you know, go to network, network led, network led growth, things of that nature, we are designed to help people really tap into, share and create, collaboration and opportunity through network effects. Obviously, that plays into VC well.

Jenny Calvert:

What we’re doing right now is working to expand that into a single player mode. So talent that may have been, impacted by a rip or things of that nature. What what do you see on LinkedIn? People are like, if I can make an intro to anyone in my network, and are you really gonna go and peruse through all their LinkedIn connections? You’re not. You might find an opportunity, and you’re like, hey, Miki. You know the the job poster. Can you broker an intro? And Miki says, I don’t really know that person. I’ve got, like, six

Mickey Powell:

I do it anyway.

Jon Johnson:

No. I did that. That happened with Kristi and I, like, last year. Yeah.

Kristi Faltorusso:

But, listen,

Jenny Calvert:

can you let her finish her point, guys? Because she was trying

Kristi Faltorusso:

to make one. She didn’t make it yet.

Jon Johnson:

Oh, hold on.

Kristi Faltorusso:

We’re we’re we’re

Jenny Calvert:

we’re in I think we’re in an interesting space, not just for customer success, but, like, the talent world in general where Mhmm. You have to have a connection, an introduction, or some kind of backdoor in. I think that’s been true for a really long time, but as the market is flooded, this is how you really can differentiate yourself and find those opportunities to get your resume to the top of the pile. In the world of customer success, people are in these moments where their whole lives and everything they’ve known are turned upside down, and so you’re seeing people want to get into customer success. Wanting to get out of customer success. Our industry

Kristi Faltorusso:

is a little bit in not I don’t

Jenny Calvert:

wanna say turmoil, but I think we’re in in a little bit of an identity crisis, especially emerging AI, digitization, what is CS, what is it not, are we support, are we back to, specialization, hyper specialization. I I think it’s just a really interesting time, and so I have I have a lot to say. But you said 2, so I’m gonna say.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Okay. Wait. Wait. No. No.

Jon Johnson:

Can we

Kristi Faltorusso:

can we can we I wanna rewind

Jenny Calvert:

for a second because

Mickey Powell:

you’re just like talked the whole

Kristi Faltorusso:

We want people to come back, Nikki.

Mickey Powell:

Wow. Yeah.

Jenny Calvert:

Sorry. That was hard. I know that

Kristi Faltorusso:

was harsh about it. Sorry.

Jenny Calvert:

I love

Kristi Faltorusso:

Are you muting me?

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. Where’s I can’t find the button.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Do not do me.

Mickey Powell:

I can’t

Jon Johnson:

find the button. Okay.

Kristi Faltorusso:

I carry the a show, John.

Mickey Powell:

You do. Alexa, mute, Christie. Yeah.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Okay. No. No.

Jenny Calvert:

No. I have

Jon Johnson:

a question.

Jenny Calvert:

Yeah. This

Kristi Faltorusso:

is a question for all of us, actually. Now we we talked about leveraging your network and helping people and trying to help people find jobs. Can I ask you guys an honest question? And I want only honest answers. Are you going to refer somebody you don’t know the quality of their work?

Jon Johnson:

No. Yes.

Jenny Calvert:

No. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Really?

Kristi Faltorusso:

No. No. The I

Jenny Calvert:

I wanna now, Mickey, I’m gonna dig into you for a

Kristi Faltorusso:

second there because I think that that’s interesting. But I think more often than not, you’re gonna hear what the rest of us said, right, which is I can’t I can’t recommend somebody for a role who I’ve never worked with. I don’t know their work quality. Yeah. I don’t know if they’re a good fit just because they simply told you they are looking for

Jon Johnson:

work. Can I can I put an asterisk under what I just said? Because I’m I

Kristi Faltorusso:

can dig into it. I think it’s an important when we talk about the value and importance of networks and how do you leverage it to help folks.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. I this is actually a recent experience too. So my company was hiring for an enterprise CSM. A gentleman hit me up on LinkedIn that I didn’t know, but, you know, he gave some bonafides. Hey. I’ve been listening to this. I saw you do this. I know a little bit about your work.

Jon Johnson:

I’ve been following you. That’s nice. Right? It’s platitudes, and I’m I’m grateful for people that finding value in it. He said, I’d love to be recommended for this job. And in you know, right off the bat, he’s never been in CS. Right? So, like, just coming out of some sales roles and, like, working kind of in, like, BDR roles, jumping into an enterprise CSM role is is a pretty big leap. Right? I’m not saying people can’t do it. It happens all of the time.

Jon Johnson:

But I I I spent a little bit of time, and I and I don’t have a whole lot, so but I did spend a little time saying, hey. Look. I I’m happy to, like, intro introduce you to the hiring manager, but here’s what they’re gonna ask you. And if you don’t have answers for these questions, it’s not worth getting on a screener because you won’t make it through it. But here’s some things that you can do in order to prepare yourself for that interview in the next that. Year 2 or growth. Right? So I don’t do that all of the time, but I I get a lot of people because, you know, we we all have to be there too when we maybe need something. We want to ask, Help for help.

Jon Johnson:

Right? And, there’s a recent, you know, interaction that I had where, you know, looking for a recommendation or whatever it is, you gotta put in the work. You gotta like, let’s get on a call. I wanna ask you questions. I wanna build a relationship with you. I wanna spend time with you. And you can’t do that at scale. You can’t do that with 1,000 people on the market that are trying to find, you know, a role. And so every time we post a job, like, I get a little bit nervous, because I’m gonna get fired I’m, you know, I’m in the network.

Jon Johnson:

I’m in out in the community, so I’m a I’m a known kind of figure. I’m gonna hit up John. Recommend me. It’s like, god, I I would hate to recommend you. You get the job, and then you fail 30 days into it, and then my boss is, like, why did you recommend that person? That’s yeah. You need a job. Yes. You need revenue.

Jon Johnson:

Yes. Need to solve all of those problems, but you also need to be successful. And if we, as CSMs, are not applying that same practice to the folks that we’re bringing into our networks, I think we’re doing a our companies and to the individuals.

Jenny Calvert:

I’d agree.

Mickey Powell:

Yeah, McGee.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Because because you had the only opposite opinion,

Jon Johnson:

I There you raised your hand. Thoughts.

Kristi Faltorusso:

And only because you raised your hand, because you know that you have to wait to be called on to speak.

Mickey Powell:

So it’s not my job to assess if they’re a good fit for the role. There is a hiring process for that. I also believe that the whole matching talent with people and jobs system just broke as fuck. Yes. Agree.

Jenny Calvert:

We will agree on that, I think. It is broke. Perpetuating bias, especially through network effects, is one of the the countersides of what we do that I am honestly concerned about. And so I do love the counterside of referring, recommending someone that you may not know well and getting them the door opening that they may need to perpetually just fast track and escalate their career. I mean, that’s super rewarding. And on the flip side, reputation. Why would you recommend this person? Right? Then it’s then it’s my word at risk. And does that degrade or devalue trust that I have in my own connections in my network.

Jenny Calvert:

So it’s kind of like one of those double edged sword. I think, Vicky, there’s there’s a valid point there. And so what is that disruption look like? And that’s something that we’re asking ourselves is how do we not continually just take people who have done great things and proven over and over again, get those up and comers a chance to have have a conversation and, John, to your point, to win the opportunity.

Mickey Powell:

Yeah. Yeah. So let me let me qualify some of this because I think there’s some important distinctions that we’re glossing over. Number 1, what is the strength of my relationship with the person that I’m asking to take a look at this person? So if I have a relationship with them, I will tell them I’m referring this person because they asked. I don’t know them. And that’s me saying it’s up to you to figure out if this is the right fit. And if they aren’t,

Jon Johnson:

I’m not

Mickey Powell:

gonna be mad. Can I add it done? I have

Kristi Faltorusso:

it done. Give give Mickey give Mickey oh, he’s bringing, like, fire today. Let’s go, Mickey. Yeah.

Mickey Powell:

Oh, okay. Continue.

Kristi Faltorusso:

We need more Jerry Springer background noises.

Mickey Powell:

Right there. You’re gonna come at me?

Kristi Faltorusso:

John, you are not the father.

Jon Johnson:

Finally.

Jenny Calvert:

Right. Maybe it’s something with John Johnson

Kristi Faltorusso:

for sure.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. Different John Johnson. Go

Mickey Powell:

ahead. Make it easier. So that’s how I protect that that that semblance of, like, I have a reputation. The second part is, I don’t know the statistics, but I’m sure they are pretty enlightening of the chance of somebody succeeding or failing in a role and how bad we are at predicting that.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah.

Mickey Powell:

So given all of those things, I should just refer them. Assuming they aren’t, like yes. If somebody shows up and they’re like, I’ve spent 17 years at, you know, the Petco washing dogs. And now I wanna be a VP of sales. I’ll be like,

Kristi Faltorusso:

Probably not right.

Mickey Powell:

And nobody nobody does that. There’s self selection. The people that come to me and asked me to refer have already self selected for what they think is maybe right in their wheelhouse or right on the, like, the the leading edge of it.

Jon Johnson:

You know, that’s why I was asking. I want your your question is your your perspective on this, Jenny, because on top of okay. So the point of recommendations to kinda cut through the general masses, have an intro. Obviously, you’re gonna you

Kristi Faltorusso:

would be between referring and recommending.

Jon Johnson:

Referrer.

Kristi Faltorusso:

I think that’s kinda Mickey’s point here is like Yeah. He can refer someone. It’s not necessarily a recommendation.

Jenny Calvert:

So I

Kristi Faltorusso:

think it’s also important that we distinguish those 2 things are are different.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. So, I guess the question that I have because I this is actually a recent experience where I went through a referral process, and there was 500 referrals for the same role. Right? So the purpose of a referral is to diminish the number of people so that you can I get to the head of the pile? And with this model and I don’t necessarily disagree, Mickey. I think this is validation that the system is broken massively. Is that now everybody is going out for a referral, and that pile is so fucking big that when I get, you know, a rejection or whatever it is, like, hey. Like, I love I really love you for this role, but the 1st person that we met was a perfect match, and we can’t go through 500 of these to get to you. Right. And that and that’s totally fine.

Jon Johnson:

But to your point of if what is the purpose of these referrals or recommendations is to get to the top of the pile.

Jenny Calvert:

Yeah. I mean, I think your skill set still has to shine. But I think around You

Mickey Powell:

don’t have to be good at your job. What are you talking about?

Jenny Calvert:

You know?

Kristi Faltorusso:

Most people aren’t. I can

Jenny Calvert:

work for you, John. I, I think the recommendation is what’s important though. Right? And so, like, last week, a great example had the next head of people, he was like, hey. You are so great to see us in relationships. I have talent who was impacted by our rifts. She wants to break in to see us, have a call. I’m like, of course. Happy to.

Jenny Calvert:

Helped her realize that talent acquisition is a lot like customer success in a lot of ways. Right? You’re mediating, playing the bridge between 2 different parties with common goals and ideal outcomes. Had a great chat. I can recommend her for a role that is a right fit for an early stage CSM and help broker the translation between what she’s done in her career and what the role is required to do. That I think is powerful and can move at least to get a look. Right. You’re right. And at the end of the day, she has to show up and present for interviews.

Jenny Calvert:

She has to pass any kind of let’s talk about tests and interview process Slater. Hopefully not, but we know that people like to do it. Anyhoo, that recommendation can make a huge difference on the likelihood of her even getting an initial screen.

Mickey Powell:

Yeah.

Jenny Calvert:

That’s good. I advocate for.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah.

Jenny Calvert:

The flip side where we continue to perpetuate this environment where you have to been there, done that to even get to that 500 pile. That’s a problem.

Jon Johnson:

I love that. That’s so good.

Mickey Powell:

Thank you. I I appreciate that. So when I was at 5 Stars, I had to hire 6 people in a hurry because we’re, like, we’re massively expanding this, like, onboarding customer success team. 2. No. Sorry. Half of the people I hired did not have traditional, like onboarding SaaS backgrounds. They didn’t know Salesforce.

Mickey Powell:

Guess what? 2 of those people ended up being the best people on the team, beating out the legacy people.

Jenny Calvert:

I love it. What were those, like, soft intangibles? Right? Because now you get into, are we hiring for aptitude and potential, or are we hiring for

Kristi Faltorusso:

a bucket, you

Jenny Calvert:

know, bullet list on a resume of things that they’ve done. Yeah. I I did for the former, but that’s just me and how I hire

Mickey Powell:

you. I tried my best to look for the things underneath just ignore the fact that they don’t have Salesforce experience and they haven’t worked in b to b SaaS because those things can be taught. I can teach you how to use Salesforce. I cannot teach you to give a shit and to work hard.

Jon Johnson:

Well, no. I think that’s the thing is that these processes for hiring is I mean, the interview I was talking to a friend of mine, Mary Kate, who coaches catalyst program, one of her mentees is like, I’m have to give a QBR on a platform that. That I’ve never used before, and it’s my 10th interview in the last whatever number of weeks or however it goes. Right? And it’s like, they expect me to be this platform expert after 2 calls when I haven’t worked in 3 months. Like, what the hell am I supposed to do?

Kristi Faltorusso:

I would jail that.

Jon Johnson:

I would fail that. No. No. Same.

Jenny Calvert:

Yeah. I I I hate it. I wouldn’t. I’m just kidding.

Jon Johnson:

We know that, Christie.

Jenny Calvert:

No. But, like,

Kristi Faltorusso:

how do we, like, shame the people that are still making people do that in the interview process? Listen, I’m gonna say something. I I very much still have an exercise in my interview process for individual contributors and for leaders. My exercise is I give you a book of business, like 10 customers, a bunch of fake data, and I tell you, come back and give me your plan. If these are your 3 objectives, retention, growth, and, advocacy, what’s your plan? These are your customers. How are you gonna tackle this? And they come back and they just present

Jenny Calvert:

to me and

Kristi Faltorusso:

it helps me understand how they think about data, what they prioritize, what they value, what their approach is, like, how

Jenny Calvert:

they mitigate risk. That is so much more valuable than can you do a QBR for a product you don’t know to an audience you have no idea. Like, can we stop setting people up to fail all the time? Please. I love your exercise. Can I do it? I’ll I’ll send

Kristi Faltorusso:

it to you. I actually have a no. It’s $25 for you, John.

Jenny Calvert:

But, Jenny, I have it.

Kristi Faltorusso:

I’ll send it to

Jenny Calvert:

you for free. John, you can go to

Kristi Faltorusso:

my website, christyfaltorusso.com, head over to templates, and you download it. It’s $25. But, Jenny, I will send that to

Mickey Powell:

ceiling I’ve heard so much about? What? Is this the glass ceiling I’ve heard so much about?

Kristi Faltorusso:

I’m operating off of the glass ceiling.

Jon Johnson:

Hell yeah. Oh, hashtag. Yeah.

Mickey Powell:

That should be

Kristi Faltorusso:

true. I can’t. I can’t. So in all lost it. Yeah. I wish. So my girlfriend, Judy, from from forever ago who I worked together with in, like, 2006. She actually had a blog called The Gloss Ceiling That’s so funny.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Her experience. She was in product, and she was a woman in tech and, like, talked about her barriers to entry and navigating that world, like, through, like, web point o and all this. Anyway, I stole it is what I’m saying. So I’m not I’m not here to claim it, but I am gonna use it because I think I like it.

Mickey Powell:

You’ve already given due where credit where credit’s due.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Right. Right.

Jenny Calvert:

So I told everybody that Judy Galani, thinks she remarried and has

Kristi Faltorusso:

a different last name, but she came up with that. That was her blog. Anyway, I will send you guys the template. But, yes, we should be doing things like that to help qualify. Mhmm. But, like, here’s another question. None of us started as customer success people. Right? Like, we started somewhere else and transitioned into or broke into.

Kristi Faltorusso:

I never had exactly. So I didn’t have customer success experience, and I like to think that I’ve been successful in my career and I was good at what I did. Right. Just a little.

Jon Johnson:

Little bit.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Maybe not, John. Okay. Sorry. I’ll work on that. Yeah. But my point being is that somebody took a chance on me because they saw the intangibles. They saw the other skills that knew I would be successful. Why don’t we have more folks focusing on that than how many customers have you ever supported? What was the guys, how much revenue did you grow? Or, like I don’t know.

Kristi Faltorusso:

If you’re if I’m interviewing somebody coming off of this crap economy right now, I’m sure their numbers are dog shit. Like, let’s be honest. So

Jon Johnson:

that’s And that’s good. The dog shit is good.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Ability I’m judging them on their ability to, like, grow their customers 400% coming off of this market. Probably not gonna do

Jon Johnson:

the job. 2020 to 2023 just needs a fucking asterisk on everything to say, like

Kristi Faltorusso:

Like, put a disclaimer. Say it wasn’t me. It hasn’t me. It was you.

Jon Johnson:

It wasn’t Shaggy, praise, in the background. Now it wasn’t

Mickey Powell:

me. Every customer success manager at Zoom from March 2020. Correct. They get no credit.

Kristi Faltorusso:

They get no credit. Gong, the Townley, like any any digital

Jenny Calvert:

yeah. Digital Let’s

Jon Johnson:

see how you’re doing in 2025. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mickey Powell:

Right. Right. 50% NR.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Back in person.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah.

Jenny Calvert:

Right. No. I think that’s

Jon Johnson:

great. So good.

Jenny Calvert:

I’m gonna hijack though. That is that is where, you know, kind of one of my passion projects that I’ve been working on is we all get to know each other. Miki, you know me, but the rest don’t. Is that. Is how do I enable early stage, early, I guess, early career CSMs, if you will, to understand and develop the soft skills that are required to be exceptional in customer success. And I’m talking improving their self awareness, hacking the minds of their customers and really understanding the intricacies of their customers’ industries, their sectors, their goals, their ambitions, their motivators, the things that are hard to teach Yeah. That are worth teaching because that is what differentiates exceptional CSMs from just another number in our CS community. I love them.

Jenny Calvert:

They can all be here. I want them all here. I think our community is like no other, but I wanna help people develop the soft skills so that they get the opportunities like Nikki Singh. Like, hey. They intrinsically have what it takes. I fundamentally believe that to be true. You can teach them a business model. You can teach them whatever else that is, but you can’t teach someone empathy.

Jenny Calvert:

You can’t teach them strategy, which Christie is what Grit. Grit. Grit. You cannot teach people grit. Can’t. And so I want to do a better job. All of the things that I’ve learned in the progression of my career through cognitive diversity, understanding how people build trust, understanding relationship building Oh. As a almost process or methodology, the same way business development is.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah.

Jenny Calvert:

And so I’m working to build a course and a program and a framework that I want to open up to everyone.

Jon Johnson:

Transitioning

Jenny Calvert:

our early career because there isn’t any training or enablement. There isn’t. It just needs.

Jon Johnson:

What I think I feel like, I mean, even just, like, thinking about the interview process itself, like, how do we how do we affect that change? Right? Your screener should be, can you do the job? Like, basics. Yeah. You okay. I’m gonna check these 10 boxes. And your next phase should be how do you let’s what is your thought on engagement strategies? How do you build trust? Let’s take an hour to talk about, like, how you build relationships over the long term with a customer that has had 10 CSMs over the last, you know, what’s

Jenny Calvert:

6 months?

Kristi Faltorusso:

Maybe train we need to, like, equally invest in leaders who are interviewing people on how to better interview. Like, what are the questions you should be asking? How do you prepare for an interview, mister leader, who shows up to an interview and never looking at a resume?

Jon Johnson:

Wjohnson. For $25.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Do you wanna barter?

Jenny Calvert:

Do you wanna barter? I

Kristi Faltorusso:

think his broker

Jenny Calvert:

is still here. Half trade.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Mine’s $26.

Jon Johnson:

Damn it.

Kristi Faltorusso:

You just raised the rate. Price going up.

Mickey Powell:

I’ll I’ll give it to 20 for 20. I’ll undercut you. $20.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Mickey is gonna but, Mickey, you don’t have it.

Mickey Powell:

I’ll pre show make it.

Jon Johnson:

Don’t create it by the end of the podcast. It’ll be up. Spam.

Jenny Calvert:

No. It’s actually I wanna Can we talk about I no. No. No. No. No. No. No.

Jenny Calvert:

No. Wait. Wait wait wait, Mckinney, and then you can

Kristi Faltorusso:

have the floor. But seriously, like, people that are interviewing, I think, do a crappy job. So we sit here focusing on, like,

Jenny Calvert:

how do we educate, enable, and help the interviewee? But, like,

Kristi Faltorusso:

I don’t know. That’s like, or is it the symptom? Is it the cause? Like, what are we inter why are we preparing them for this shit interview?

Jon Johnson:

Yep.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Change the questions. Change the structure. Change the readiness for those conversations. I talk to people all the time who come to interviews and say, it was clear the person interviewing me didn’t review my resume. They were not prepared. They did not know my background, my experiences. Shame on you. Yeah.

Jenny Calvert:

That’s bad. But where do you learn where is how to interview school? Where do you learn to get paid before?

Jon Johnson:

Oh, man.

Kristi Faltorusso:

What Well, it’s probably not from everyone’s HR teams. I’ll tell

Jenny Calvert:

you that much.

Mickey Powell:

Yeah. And you fail yeah. You just do it poorly for, like, 5 to 10 years.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Until someone shames you publicly on a podcast.

Jenny Calvert:

I’m not, like, shy of this, but I always walk in interviews and I tell them, like, I am a poor interviewer. So, like, I would love to be more of an open dialogue. Let’s have a conversation around, you know, what I know to be true based on paper experience, but I wanna better understand the person. But I tell them point blank, I am not a great interviewer. And I think Well,

Kristi Faltorusso:

let’s just work on your interviewing then.

Jenny Calvert:

Well, I think that let’s keep breath. Right? That I’m not gonna hit them with 30 prescripted questions that may or may not be relevant to who they are and how they show up as a person. And so I’ve actually seen it work really well to be just, like, I’m gonna lower the anxiety of the room a little bit and just say, like, I’m a bad interviewer. Or even Those

Mickey Powell:

are actually the best interviews I’ve had. More like the interviewers Conversational. Hey. Like, I’m not gonna do this whole structured, like, let me at and blah blah blah. Like, let’s have a conversation. And Jenny, I think what you’re, you’re alluding to is, you know, probably better than most that we have so many biases that are so deep that. That unless we are willing to acknowledge that our perspective is totally flawed Yeah. Then we can have an open conversation.

Mickey Powell:

I’ve actually like I go in interviews either explicitly telling them that or just reminding myself of, like, I’m gonna have a bunch of preconceived notions. I’m gonna sit down and I’m gonna have biases. And it’s my job as best as possible to hold that in mind and have a conversation with the person to try to understand, like, do they have what it takes to be successful? Am I setting them up for success? So I start from a place of I know it’s more likely that I fuck this up than I not fucking.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. Well but I also think we’re putting a lot of, like, onus on, like, people that are good at their jobs. And and and, like, I know that there are people that are very good at their jobs, but it’s the people that are good at their jobs are the ones that care about this type of experience. Jenny, you can just speak. You don’t have to raise your hand.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Only Mickie has to raise

Jenny Calvert:

his hand.

Kristi Faltorusso:

There would

Jenny Calvert:

be I I’m, like, also the one in Zoom. Mickie, you can attest to this. I, like, put my hand up. I’ve been, like, call them.

Kristi Faltorusso:

I do too. I actually use the raise hand

Jenny Calvert:

in Zoom, the little all the time.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Thank you. When I sit there passively, aggressively looking at everyone waiting for

Jenny Calvert:

them to acknowledge my emoji.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Yes. But your even if my

Jenny Calvert:

hand is up, do you see it? Yeah. And now I forgot. So just keep

Mickey Powell:

going. Okay.

Jon Johnson:

Damn it. No. But but I think I I do think This is

Kristi Faltorusso:

where the BS gets in the way.

Jon Johnson:

We spend so much time on the customer journey, and we spend so much time on, like, Getting rid of frictions. And I know that there’s whole industries. So maybe, like, maybe what we should do, like, let’s bring on somebody from the HR perspective, right, that Is on a hiring team. I think it’d be really interesting to be like, why are you fucking everything up? Or, like, how do you think about these things? That. Right? It’s a perspective ship because there’s inherent biases in the fact that I am not on the risk resource or the recruiting team. Right? That’s just not something that I’ve done, but I’ve got a lot of opinions and complaints about the people that are coming through. So Why don’t

Kristi Faltorusso:

we do, like, an NPS for, like, interviewing. Right? I would love for candidates to come through, like, have, like, a candidate experience survey.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. Why And

Kristi Faltorusso:

then you get to share that score with folks.

Jenny Calvert:

I haven’t checked it out yet, but a little plug. I saw a post from someone in the middle of Google Rifts that started candidate dot f y I because Oh, yeah.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. I saw that. Yeah.

Jenny Calvert:

I haven’t checked it out yet, but they’re all about candidate experience. So maybe we can find someone over there and and and see what what what kind of disruption they’re looking to do in this space, because I think it’s right. LinkedIn is ripe for disruption. I think the talent hiring landscape is ripe for disruption. I think there’s a lot just in this conversation that we all believe to be true that is broken.

Jon Johnson:

But I

Jenny Calvert:

do remember my question for you, John. You said people great at their jobs. How do we even define that right now? You just gave an asterisk to 20 to 20 to 23. What does great work even look like?

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. That’s a great

Mickey Powell:

Yeah. And I would I would make the argument that you don’t even necessarily need to look for, like great work in a job because

Jenny Calvert:

you Yeah.

Mickey Powell:

Should be hiring well, yeah. Like

Jenny Calvert:

it’s a fair question. What does great look like? I mean, I’ll tell you all transparent. Well, it’s hard. You tell me I’m doing a great job all the time. I never feel like I’m doing a great job. I also am, like, a recovering perfectionist, and I’m not I

Kristi Faltorusso:

was gonna say, I think it’s different. I think folks This is like your Connor thing. Yeah. I was gonna say that that that’s probably it’s a you thing, Jennie, that

Jenny Calvert:

we gotta work through maybe in some group therapy after this. We could Definitely need to

Kristi Faltorusso:

continue to record.

Mickey Powell:

This is not this is not this is group therapy.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Used you misused the podcast, Mickey.

Jon Johnson:

No. It’s fine, Nikki. I’m on the same boat as you. No. I think that’s I love that. That’s I think this is a really great topic.

Kristi Faltorusso:

How wait. Wait. Can I ask no? I wanna ask Jenny a question. Jenny, what’s next for you? As you think about your career, where do you want it to go?

Jon Johnson:

What is growth?

Jenny Calvert:

That’s a great question. I I actually have spent a lot of time with executive coaches and thought I wanted to be a chief customer officer, and I realized I don’t.

Mickey Powell:

Thanks. Christie violently shakes

Jon Johnson:

her head.

Jenny Calvert:

On the pod today. I love customer success. I love the space. I love how I stumbled into it. I’m so sure similar to all of you all, but I know I am meant to serve, I’m meant to coach, and I’m meant to lead. So immediate future, I’m building that course. I’m building it. I know I am.

Jenny Calvert:

I don’t know what it looks like yet. The framework is built. The content is not. So that is first and foremost. The second thing, which is maybe fighting words for Mickey, so this should be fun.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Yes. Let’s go.

Jenny Calvert:

Because I think as we enter this age of AI and machine learning and all of these things that are really that shift. Right? This is the next big shift in business. Everything is including and incorporating AI, whether just Jeff Watson or whatever. I think the differentiator in business becomes the human element.

Jon Johnson:

It does. Agree.

Jenny Calvert:

And I want to place my bets and double down on where I’m headed that the differentiator is human. But what that looks like is yet to be seen. Right? Because AI can do so much, and it’s learning to be more human. So then the power of those relationships and the way we show up and have conversations like this. Tell me a robot can facilitate the same dialogue that we’re having here today.

Mickey Powell:

It can to a point. How

Jon Johnson:

Right. But I, we we can get into the futurism, and you’re gonna have the whole 2 hour conversation with Mickey about how we’re all gonna be replaced by AI synthesis.

Kristi Faltorusso:

I can never be replaced.

Jon Johnson:

This is true.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Everything that lives in our,

Jenny Calvert:

like, odds and our avatars will go to work every day, and we’re just gonna

Kristi Faltorusso:

wait for it. Oh, my gosh. Can I just exercise all day? Can everyone leave me alone?

Jon Johnson:

Quit talking to me.

Mickey Powell:

Christie, if you just if you were just like a celebrity, like, movie star, you just do 1 movie a year and then you just work out the rest of the time.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Well, that’s kinda why I do this podcast in hopes that somebody will listen, think that I’m amazing.

Jon Johnson:

Put you in real housewives of New Jersey.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Real housewives of Long Island are not on New Jersey.

Jon Johnson:

Whatever. Same thing.

Mickey Powell:

What’s it yeah.

Jenny Calvert:

Oh my god. It’s so different.

Jon Johnson:

I know.

Kristi Faltorusso:

It is so different. I mean, you’d be equally trashed. I know. But can you guys stop? I’m not from Jersey.

Jon Johnson:

Okay. But

Kristi Faltorusso:

A complete offense to everyone who lives there. Complete advice.

Jon Johnson:

Speaking of celebrity, I’m gonna do just, like, a quick pivot here for a second. But, Christie, you’re coming up on a level of celebrity

Kristi Faltorusso:

like, I’m, like, following somebody else who’s got, like A1000000000. 500,000. I’m, like, oh, that’s cool. Yeah. I blame our industry. Customer success isn’t big enough yet.

Jon Johnson:

It’s not sexy enough. We’ll get there.

Kristi Faltorusso:

No. I think it’s totally sexy. For the rumor? I mean, I’m bringing the sexy back, John, are you not?

Jon Johnson:

I have Okay. Have not been able to set up for Well,

Kristi Faltorusso:

I mean, I think that they’re aren’t they making, aren’t they doing a reunion tour or something? Didn’t they just they are.

Jon Johnson:

They just had a new song for Trolls. Yeah.

Jenny Calvert:

I thought it was a sustainable success. No. It’s just

Kristi Faltorusso:

that right. You’re right. Just yeah. Durables. Sexy.

Jenny Calvert:

No. No. We’re not using the durable.

Kristi Faltorusso:

No durable.

Jon Johnson:

I’m gonna add a I’m gonna add a sound effect of

Kristi Faltorusso:

negative, negative, negative, negative, negative, negative. I like the alliteration. Can you please that. I like the alliteration on sustainable success. I think I like the s. The s

Mickey Powell:

It is.

Jenny Calvert:

Doing. It’s better

Mickey Powell:

The SS?

Kristi Faltorusso:

And durable. Yeah. Like SS Christie.

Jon Johnson:

Hey, there we go.

Jenny Calvert:

SS Camaro. I mean, not ashamed to admit it makes me think of a car. But hey, it’s, like, fast and awesome and see?

Kristi Faltorusso:

That’s an awesome.

Jon Johnson:

We don’t need to go there, Mickey.

Mickey Powell:

I have a no. I’m not going yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I’m not going to, like, the Gustafka. So I actually my like to AI and, like, kinda to bring this whole conversation to

Kristi Faltorusso:

a new To

Mickey Powell:

your topic? Place.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Yes. Uh-huh.

Mickey Powell:

No. I actually do think that the human element is really important. And I think it has to revolve around trust. And, you know, we’re I was at the ChurnZero, conference last week, and there was a discussion around this. And, oh, the whole, like, the whole place.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. Was it a discussion? It was

Kristi Faltorusso:

was it different? Wasn’t it a debate when Miranda was on. Right?

Mickey Powell:

Yes. So and, you know, kudos to them. I heckled them from the back pretty hard. That. But Oh, so nice. What I actually think is true is that the skills, the behaviors, the profile of people that we have generally hired for and supported and have succeeded in customer success are actually really needed in other places. So I actually think that we are going to see an AI supported spread Yeah. Of the the things that we do.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. The foundational task. Yeah.

Mickey Powell:

Yeah. Yeah. Because, like, therapists or teachers or, like, there it’s probably not a coincidence that we’ve seen a lot of people from the teaching industry come into customer success. I sincerely hope that we just get off our asses and pay them more so they can stay teaching.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. Teaching because we need them to stay teaching. Amen. Yep.

Mickey Powell:

So I actually think that customer success will start to change in terms of, like, how we define and think about it, but those people will be supported to do those roles elsewhere. And I think that that’s a really, really important thing because trust and humility and But also, like, the ability to see other people’s perspective. And Jenny really put this way better than I did. And say, like, oh, I see where you’re trying to go. Here, let me help you chart a path to get there.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. That’s good. Awesome. Well, I’m gonna I’m gonna shift topics real quick. We got about 15 minutes left. There is one thing that I I kinda just wanted to have, like, a round table discussion on. I know we, everybody’s aware of what’s happening in Israel and Palestine right now.

Mickey Powell:

It may not be, so fill them

Jon Johnson:

in. Oh, yeah. Okay. So as of today, Israel has called up 300,000, reservists into their, national defense. I I think national army, to protect the border and potentially move into, you know, some other military movements. I don’t know much. I’m just kinda reading the wires As we go, we live in a global society and we work in a global industry. One of the things that the pandemic did do is this kind of movement towards remote.

Jon Johnson:

And a lot of the people in our network I mean, you know, working with CS insider since the start, we have contributors that are in Israel right now who are being affected by this that. Call to arms, in a in a global movement. We saw the same thing with Ukraine, you know, last year that we’re still seeing today. There is, a kind of a a need in our space right now where we’re doing a job, and we have hired people in these places, working with customers in these places where wonderful technology companies exist and people of all kind of, you know, like, walks of life. Our colleagues are now on the front line of a battlefield. And this is something that is very different I think a world that I grew up in, and I know a lot of people are affected in different ways outside of America that have been experiencing these things. So one of the things that I, I just kinda wanna make sure that there’s a moment that we take to just talk about how do we support, not even just politically or financially, but when when your when your coworker says, hey. Like, this is happening.

Jon Johnson:

I’m I’m in the middle of of this war or I’m in the middle of this pandemic or whatever this is, how we respond, as empathetic leaders, to a crisis that that we may never experience on our own, but we you know, work still needs to be done, and people still need to be supported, and benefits need to be paid, and and, you know, kind of across the board on that. So, Again, this isn’t, you know, this isn’t a political, you know, kind of podcast or anything, but these are human beings on both sides and on every side. And there’s there’s life that’s happening right now, and and it’s heartbreaking. And, you know, I just wanna take a moment to, you know, just kinda share that there’s there’s things that we can do and things that we need to do, to to support the individuals in these, crisis.

Jenny Calvert:

It’s almost like you don’t know what to say.

Jon Johnson:

That’s it.

Jenny Calvert:

Very important. And I I I thank you for for bringing this up today. I think it’s it’s super important. I think the approach with empathy is huge and love and compassion and space to process. A good colleague of mine, Jewish and his family that they haven’t been able to reach. Yesterday was Sabbath. Can’t violate Sabbath, although then you don’t know if they’re alive. And so I just sent a quick note and just said, hey.

Jenny Calvert:

I’m thinking of you. If you if you want to talk or if you want someone to just go off on your feelings. I am here. I am I am an ear for you. And if not, like, totally understand that as well. So I think offering an ear or offering nothing and just letting them know that you are thinking about them, is so important. Because it’s gonna get harder before it gets easier. And just because I know we obviously have people in Israel right now, I will tell you there are plenty of colleagues and people domestically that have family.

Jenny Calvert:

You know, it is a close knit, close family. Even if they’re here stateside, they most likely have family that they don’t know the status of or or if they’re alive right now.

Jon Johnson:

Yep.

Jenny Calvert:

I worked at Sisense for for a while, and, they’re an Israeli based company, and so I led teams over in Tel Aviv. And that was one of the first things I did this morning was, like, WhatsApp everybody who I’d worked with previously to just check-in and let them know that I was thinking of them and sending prayers. I don’t think there’s much to do beyond that, but I do just want them to know that

Kristi Faltorusso:

I am thinking of them.

Jenny Calvert:

I am praying for them. It’s heavy. It’s, you know, a lot of them shared stories and videos and content with me via WhatsApp, and it’s a lot to process. So to your point

Kristi Faltorusso:

of just offering space and just recognizing that everyone is going to navigate this differently. But one thing I think that we should also I just I think for me personally, in a time where I feel like the US has felt very divided

Jon Johnson:

Yeah.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Over the past couple years, we don’t express enough gratitude for the fact that we may never experience these types of things that are seen around the world. Yep. Right. And it is it’s, it’s something special and unique about our country that most countries do not have. This is this is a luxury.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah.

Kristi Faltorusso:

Right? And I think sometimes it’s easy for us to identify all the things that are wrong with our country and all the politicians or this or that and have all these feelings about things. We miss this bigger point of the fact that we are this United Nations, and we are a a a force, and we are safe. Right? And that is that’s a privilege every day that we should all be thankful for. Yeah.

Jon Johnson:

When I think there’s a lot of opportunity, especially in in America, and I spend a lot of time on podcast where we wanna solution these things. Right? And I think it’s really easy to get desensitized, especially with the last few years with the pandemic and then, you know, the American political system these last few years and Ukraine and Russia and what’s happening in South Sudan, what’s happening to the Uighurs, and what’s happening to so many people across the across the world, like, I have a I carry a a very heavy heart and, like, it’s emotional to think about. We spend so much time talking about the outcomes that we don’t actually, like, Address the fact that this is a mom and a dad or a brother and a sister in a situation that they have no control over by competing political, whatever your views are, whatever you believe, like, that that there are human beings at the center of these these these things. And and, yes, I’m I’m so grateful for where we live, but there’s also this heartache of, god, I just wanna fucking fix everything. And I want kids to eat, and I want parents to sleep with their you know, in their homes and And be reunited in ways that they need to be reunited in. And, you know, I’m not not that I’m advocating for a right or a wrong here, but, I just I want I want a solution. I want solutions, and there’s so many problems that maybe that’s the thing that is uniquely American. We’re like, oh, we can Fix it.

Jon Johnson:

Let’s just get everybody on a call, and we’ll talk through it. And, you know, I’ve been watching The West Wing since it came out. Like, it’s just like a constant thing where it’s like that’s not how anything works At all, in any way. And I think we spend so much time talking about, oh, if we just did this, where we just we just really need to go hug some people, and we really just need to, like, You know, feed some people and really just kinda be there in a way that we can’t in a way that maybe only we can. So, that’s it. I know that’s a heavy topic. It’s something that’s incredibly important, to me. I know it’s incredibly important to everybody else on this podcast.

Jon Johnson:

So if you’re affected in this, Crisis or any of the other crises that are going on around the world. If there’s, you know, organizations or things that you’re that you need, you know, support or bring attention to, please, you know, let us know, I in ways that we can support. I I don’t know how to end what we’re talking about.

Kristi Faltorusso:

There. I think we end there because I don’t think that you I don’t think shifting topics is appropriate. I think we end with a kinda moment’s pause, and Yeah. Hopefully, everyone reflects positively, and we come back next week and,

Jenny Calvert:

get to do this all over again.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. So thank you so much, Jenny, for your time. I appreciate it.

Jenny Calvert:

Thank you.

Jon Johnson:

If there’s anything else that we can do, please let us know. That. And, you know, thank you to all of our listeners listeners who are, you know, with us today. Stoked to be here with you guys. So

Mickey Powell:

I’ll I’ll say I’ll end a way that, a podcast I listened to has done since COVID. They said, take care of yourself. And if you can, someone else too.

Jon Johnson:

Amen. Love that. I love that so much. So Thanks. Guys. We’ll see you next week.