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Kristi Faltorusso:
I sent John. I was like, hey, what’s up with Josh? Is he okay with his peas on his face?

Alex Turkovic:
And he

Kristi Faltorusso:
didn’t know exactly what I was referencing.

Interlude:
Unchurned is presented by I just sent a photo. Oh,

Alex Turkovic:
my friend.

Interlude:
Unchurned, a show about the leaders and innovators of companies who have forged incredible customer relationships and stories you can use to advance your own career. Here’s your host, Josh Schechter.

Jon Johnson:
Do you

Kristi Faltorusso:
know that I’ve never actually listened to the words that that woman said? Like, I just feel like I intently listened just there.

Alex Turkovic:
Yeah. How many times have you heard it? A 100.

Jon Johnson:
This is a 100

Alex Turkovic:
in the video.

Kristi Faltorusso:
A whole bunch of times, but I I never seem to hear the words. So

Jon Johnson:
That’s amazing. Yeah. Episode 103, 102, I lost track after

Alex Turkovic:
Awesome.

Jon Johnson:
A hundred, which was only a couple episodes ago, so I’m not doing so great. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Unchurned podcast. As usual, Josh isn’t here.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Usually, I feel like it would be that Christy isn’t here. I’ve had, like, a bad run the last couple weeks.

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. Well, Josh has, like, a legitimate excuse, and I feel like we need the audience to know that he is just playing ultimate founder and vacationing in Martha’s Vineyard, like the CEO that he is.

Kristi Faltorusso:
He’s going through a really tough time as he settles into his beautiful new apartment with his lovely girlfriend and his puppy.

Jon Johnson:
Gorgeous.

Kristi Faltorusso:
You know, just

Jon Johnson:
Gorgeous family.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Really tough right now, things for him. So I hope that he is he’s okay at Martha’s Vineyard, and

Alex Turkovic:
we’ll just

Kristi Faltorusso:
see him in the rest and

Jon Johnson:
be charged.

Kristi Faltorusso:
We’re really rooting for him.

Alex Turkovic:
Hearts go out.

Jon Johnson:
So, Josh, if you are listening to this, I really just wanted to say fuck you. But

Alex Turkovic:
And you did. So there you go.

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. But I did it, like, with a soft

Kristi Faltorusso:
with a tone. So you’re, like, kinda like Taylor Swift. Right? And her thank you Amy song?

Jon Johnson:
But, mom, I love him. Well, we’re gonna well, this is a bit of a podcast inception, because not only do, we have the supreme Christy Falteruzzo That’s nice. Champion of She’s So Sweet.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Love that.

Jon Johnson:
We also have Alex Turcovec from the digital customer experience podcast.

Alex Turkovic:
CX, baby.

Jon Johnson:
CX, baby. And, we have all been guests on 1 another’s podcast

Alex Turkovic:
You have.

Jon Johnson:
At 1 time or another.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Well, that’s a lot of you guys actually haven’t had I haven’t had either of you on the She’s So Sweet podcast, and not to discriminate

Jon Johnson:
No. No. No. Let me clarify.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Not a fan.

Jon Johnson:
Podcast that we are eligible for.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Yes. We’re irrelevant.

Jon Johnson:
Equity, not inequality.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Thank you.

Alex Turkovic:
Well, you guys hold the distinction of being 1 of or 2 of 3, maybe 4 people that have actually been on twice.

Jon Johnson:
Oh. Yeah. That’s right. Double dipped. Mhmm.

Alex Turkovic:
Because you you 1

Jon Johnson:
of we’re gonna do the thing that Josh hates the most because he’s not here, and and we’re gonna talk about, our friendship a little bit. Good. And the reason that I do this and I’m gonna I’m gonna take a little bit of space. And, Christy, you and I have talked about this. I if you’ve been listening to this podcast for any number of time, you know that Josh is king of just hitting record and dumping everybody just into the moment. Now there’s a lot of pros and cons to that when you have rapport. However, most of our guests, we don’t have rapport. So I tend to find those moments of just like, hey.

Jon Johnson:
When’s the last time we talked with something that’s interesting to kinda build a little bit of that that, you know, that good vibe. So I know that we have some topics that we wanted to cover today. The things that I’m interested in for you specifically as a podcast host, I actually I kinda want you to gas yourself out a little bit. Mhmm. There’s a few things that I’m really interested in is some of the themes that you’ve been hearing and learning about on your podcast.

Alex Turkovic:
Yeah.

Jon Johnson:
And then how that’s actually affecting your career, what you’re doing with your job and your day to day outside of podcast life. And I will say if you haven’t listened to Alex’s podcast, it is it is very, very well done. It’s very well thought out. My, we did he does this either or thing, that he starts out to kind of build rapport, and I’ve always really loved it. We didn’t plan for any of that today, so we don’t actually have any games that we can play. Alex, you’re kind of the king of those things.

Alex Turkovic:
It’s all good.

Jon Johnson:
But what was your favorite either or that you had this season on your podcast?

Alex Turkovic:
Well, I mean, to be honest with you, I only do the either or for, like, music people.

Jon Johnson:
Okay.

Alex Turkovic:
You know? So I did an either or with you. I did an either or with, Kushmerich.

Jon Johnson:
Mhmm. Kushmerich.

Kristi Faltorusso:
That makes sense.

Alex Turkovic:
And, an upcoming guest.

Jon Johnson:
Who shall not be named. Oh. Big roast. My 1 thing that III will say I loved is, when he brought up a bunch of heavy rock, heavy, heavy rock. Yeah.

Alex Turkovic:
And you were, like, he’s more of a hip hop guy.

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. Yeah. And I was, like, I actually grew up listening to hip hop, and it was like a curveball. So he’s like, this session probably isn’t gonna be as as exciting as it could have been. I was like, if you got Tribe Called Quest in there, I’m serious. We’re into that. Funny.

Alex Turkovic:
I’ve actually since that episode, I’ve started listening to a lot more Tribe Called Quest, and I’m an I’m a better person for it.

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. I think we all are. Low end theory will change your life, everybody.

Alex Turkovic:
It will. It will.

Jon Johnson:
But here we are. We’re sitting on the 1st Monday of July. We’re all probably very, very, very hot and sweaty with this heat dome that is over us. Where are we finding ourselves in the customer experience world, Alex?

Alex Turkovic:
Utter chaos.

Kristi Faltorusso:
That feels about right.

Alex Turkovic:
You know, it it’s funny though because as as you were talking about, like, you know, some of the themes and things like that that I’ve picked up on, I mean, there’s definitely a lot of themes that we can talk about. But a lot of times, the emotion that I go through, I end up getting pissed off a lot as the result of my interviews because I interview these people that are doing some incredible, amazingly innovative things. And, 9 times, like, in my w 2, in my regular, like, day job kind of stuff, you know, we we work primarily with, like, on prem software. So we don’t have the luxury of, like, telemetry data, and we don’t have the luxury of, like, all this cool rich stuff. And so they’re doing all these things. I’m, like, well, I don’t know who my champions are, and, you know. So it’s it’s a bit of a dichotomy too, because I have my finger on the pulse. However and and luckily, I’ve been able That’s it.

Jon Johnson:
Just your

Alex Turkovic:
Just finger on the pulse. And luckily, I’ve been able to really start talking with a lot founders and a lot of VPs and and and, you know, chief customer officers about this kind of stuff and helping them along and things like that. But when it comes to, like, you know, implementing in my day gig, I’m, like, operating with with 2 hands tied behind my back a lot of times. So we have to get really innovative about the stuff we do, which is really cool.

Jon Johnson:
No. I that’s actually that’s a good I that’s something I’m curious about. Christy, I feel like you might have a perspective too when you do speak to a lot of people in the industry that are doing that are doing really interesting things or at least want to do interesting things. And you’ll you learn all these things from podcasts or, you know, webinars or events that you go to. Then you come home and you’ve got, like like, the actual versus the ideal. Mhmm.

Alex Turkovic:
And

Jon Johnson:
then you kinda have to, like, oh, how do I fit this big audacious plan either coming off of a conference or coming out of a webinar into the fact that, like you just said, you have both both hands tied behind your back a little bit. And then there’s that, okay, how do I stay, like, on top of these things as we’re maturing?

Kristi Faltorusso:
Listen. Here here’s my thoughts on this. I think the problem is is that not everything, not every motion is for every company. Right? Like, even talking about scaled CS, in concept, we all want to embrace it, but we wanna embrace it for the wrong reasons. We wanna embrace it to save money, reduce spend on headcount, and try try to figure out a way to drive similar motions with technology and process and workflows, but not every product, not every industry is going to be successful with that as the framework. So companies aren’t necessarily thinking about their customers. They’re thinking about themselves. And so the reason why these things don’t fit or why these

Jon Johnson:
things don’t

Kristi Faltorusso:
work is because it’s almost by design. It’s like this is the product that we are. And so I I’ve been watching people struggle and fail left and right, and my question is always like, but why are you doing that? Like, nothing you’ve described when we talked about your your product, your business, the maturity of your customers, and the space you’re in warrants that. You’re not Calendly. Right? Your product is so intuitive. This isn’t super easy. Like, if you are solving a massive problem with highly configurable and complex technology in a space that does warrant a white glove approach, why are you trying to give a 1000 customers to 1 CSM and expect the same outcome?

Alex Turkovic:
Yeah.

Jon Johnson:
And there’s a temp there’s a temperature in in Christy’s voice that I don’t

Kristi Faltorusso:
normally get to. Because it’s hot out and I’m schmoozing.

Jon Johnson:
This early spin a podcast. Normally, we have to, like, rile her up

Kristi Faltorusso:
a little bit. So this is good news. We got the fire poker today. I’m here.

Jon Johnson:
No. I actually I love this. And I think I think we there’s a lot of fatigue in the industry right now with people that have just, like, I’ve tried all of these things.

Alex Turkovic:
Like, who

Jon Johnson:
do I listen to? And I think, like, yeah, these are all great success stories, but it’s the same thing. Like, when we come down to, like, a like, a success plan or any of the stories that are CSMs release, like, this I’ve seen this for a decade now where you hear about 1 customer that did something really, really well,

Alex Turkovic:
and

Jon Johnson:
they wanna tell that story. And then every CSM goes and runs and tries to duplicate it. And the problem is is they’re duplicating the actions. They’re not duplicating the outcome or Yeah. Just shooting for the outcome. And it’s like, this is something that we’re dealing with right now in our organization, which is we have all of these great stories, these great plans, but they’re not replicable because it’s a super niche, you know, customized organization. And and I really love that because it gives us a lot of opportunity. But this idea that we’re painting with 1 big broad brush, even on the digital side and then, you know, the the tech touch, whatever you wanna call it.

Jon Johnson:
It’s like it’s not gonna get there because we’re just I like what you just said, Christy. It’s like we’re thinking about company first. We’re not thinking about customer first. And the best programs, whether it’s digital or on, you know, on prem or white glove, all come from because this is what our customers need in order to be successful for our company. And this echo chamber has become so loud. Mhmm. We’re spending so much time listening to each other and not as much time listening to our customers.

Alex Turkovic:
Yeah. I there’s so much so much valid there. But I, you know, I I do wanna hit on a couple of things that I’ve talked about a few times now, which is to say that and this kinda summarizes what you guys have said. It’s like, I I don’t know of any other function really that has as much variability and volatility as CS, but digital CS specifically. Because you’ve got, you know yes. You’re different at every company, but you’re also probably, hopefully, different in every customer and every industry that you’re serving and every persona that you’re serving and so, you know, it becomes this complex beast very, very quickly and I think those that do it well are really good at stripping back the complexity and really solving, you know, solving for the big rocks first and then digging deeper into that complexity. The 1 thing that I think, is very often overlooked in a digital strategy that I think actually makes the biggest difference is, pulling emotional intelligence into the mix. And actually having your digital communications or outreach or whatever, and even the stuff that you build internally for your CSMs, have it be built in an emotionally intelligent way where you are aware of the recipient’s challenges and you’re aware of what, you know, the the possible outcomes are of whatever your, you know, whatever your engagement looks like.

Alex Turkovic:
And, you know, so many so many of us just kinda get that wrong. Like, you know, you draft an email, you’re like, oh, that’s gonna be good. But is it really? Have you tested it? Have you really put yourself in your customer shoes? Have you put yourself in the admin shoes? Have you put yourself in the executive shoes? It it takes some really kind of introspective work to put that So

Jon Johnson:
then what is the 1 answer and solution that will apply to everybody that gets us to that outcome, Alex?

Alex Turkovic:
Yeah. The 1. Right? Yeah. I mean, look

Jon Johnson:
There isn’t 1. That’s the the trick, guys. The answer is there isn’t 1.

Alex Turkovic:
But it’s like, you know, we I feel like sometimes when it comes to digital, we’ve just forgotten how to communicate sometimes, and we can take a lot of lessons from, like, b to c in those kinds of instances where they’ve learned how to communicate with their customers in a human way, because it you know, Did you do that really well? And for some reason, in b to b, we’re just afraid to do that. I don’t know why that

Jon Johnson:
Because b to c, it ties everything directly to, like, purchase and attachment rates, and we don’t do that in b to b. It’s really hard to say, like, this outreach increased revenue by x or added. I come from a b to b, like, marketing or b to c marketing So it’s like, if you had a lot of really great telemetrics that just came in very, very quickly, and it it tied to revenue immediately. And we don’t have that in b to b because everybody keeps taking revenue away from us, and then they give it back to us, and then they take it away from us. Yeah. They give it back to us, and they say, why is why isn’t anything working?

Kristi Faltorusso:
Let me ask you guys a question because I just had an interesting conversation with a customer this morning, and we were talking about how do you measure the impact and effectiveness of customer success as an individual, like CSMs. And so the dialogue was my team is doing the things I told them to do, but we’re actually not seeing the effectiveness of that. Right? And so this is where we had this really bold conversation of, like, well, you’re tracking actions, not outcomes. You’re more focused on how many times did you connect with your customer? How many emails did you send to your customers? Like, these tasks and these activities and not what did that generate. And by design, we’re not starting backwards. Right? We should be starting with what is the objective we want to achieve, What is the outcome that we’re looking for? And then what are the things we can do to ensure that’s a reality? And how do we measure that? And so I’m curious for you, Alex. In conversations that you’re having with folks, how are you seeing that done well where it’s not focused on actions and activities, but it’s focused on real tangible outcomes that are driving value?

Alex Turkovic:
2 areas, I think. Maybe 3. I don’t know. We’ll see where this goes. I think 1 of the, for me, 1 of the really kind of, hallmark things that I think we all should be doing is the CSQL. Because it yeah. John went

Jon Johnson:
I agree with you, but, like, man, the whiplash that I’ve had over the years with that Sure.

Alex Turkovic:
And and by a CSQL, I mean, like, a really well implemented CSQL program that incentivizes the right behaviors and things like that because it marries the behavior piece with the metric piece and the measurable kind of piece. If you if you as a CSM or somebody in digital or whatever can feed the pipeline, you know, that’s that’s really gonna help you when it comes time to, like, quote, unquote, proving your seat at the table, all that kind of BS. In in digital, 1 of the things that I’ve been focused on is tying, really focusing on marketing metrics, to be honest with you, and and campaign metrics. Mhmm. And and looking at, you know, engagement rate increases based on certain campaigns and those kinds of things. So really tying the out again, tying the outcome to the action, I think is is is where the rubber meets the road.

Jon Johnson:
How do you coach, like, Christy, let’s I want your opinion on this too, but how do you coach people that have a background that like this that’s a very sales heavy process is is I’m tracking the activity because as you know, every BDR, they just have to have more calls to hit their number. Like, that’s just the way that it works, and it’s not the same in CS. But I see this more and more where we have tools that just you have to log these activities. And if you don’t hit these activities, then you’re not successful, And it’s not really tied to a successful outcome. So how do you, like, how do you advocate internally for this thing that you have to have metrics? You have to track something, especially if you’ve got a board or a VC or, you know, PE firm that’s saying, hey. We gotta have something that can be reported. But How do you balance that and how do you how do you coach people into that space of saying, yeah, these activities are good as long as they’re based on the outcome, not what your, you know, preamble is. Pause.

Jon Johnson:
Just let that hang. Cool.

Alex Turkovic:
Dramatic pause. Was that for you, Kristy?

Kristi Faltorusso:
Or was it just I was gonna let you are our guest, so I was gonna let you speak first. But interestingly enough, I do have a marketing background as well. And so I spent the first 10 years of my career in marketing. So I’m very familiar with, like, tracking those metrics, and it’s hard not to get excited about that because marketing metrics are so immediate, especially if you’re measuring things like engagement. Alright. You can see was my were the emails that we sent? Were they opened? Were they engaged with? Did the customer click through? But I think we’ve gotta get better about attaching lagging indicators with these leading indicators Yeah. Because those metrics Yeah. Are important.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Absolutely. They tell us a part of the story. But at the end of the day, if the objective there is to get your customers to use the product, buy more product, renew the product, We need to be able to attach that there, and it’s the same challenges we have in marketing with attribution. Right? It’s hard to say, well, what what is the cost of this? Right? If somebody came to your website or if they came in through a webinar lead or if they did all of these things, then how do you attribute where that lead came from? And I think we have that same problem of, like, attribution. What is working? If we’re doing certain campaigns and we’re driving all these initiatives and you got CSMs reaching out, you’ve got the product engaging, you got webinars and all this stuff, how do we know what’s actually working or is it a combination of all these things or do they have to do 3 of these things that drives the action? But ultimately, if the outcome that we’re looking for is product related, is retention related, is growth related, is advocacy related, We need to be able to have some attribution to those metrics to understand, is it driving the right impact, not just the right activity, is my 2¢.

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. I love that.

Alex Turkovic:
1 thing that you were touching on, John, was, like, the coaching area where you start to have this overlap between, like, a digital team and an operations team. Right? Because I think any good digital program is gonna drive internal efficiencies as much as customer facing stuff. And, you know, like for instance, helping us helping a CSM complete, you know, x number of tasks that they have to fill out in multiple places via automation and those kinds of things. Right? So that that’s CSQL or whatever, but through automation, you can help track it back and dashboard and reporting and all that kind of fun stuff. Right? So I think I think going back to that that point of having a well implemented program around this kind of stuff, you know, that has to be taken account into account because the last thing you wanna do is throw more stuff at your CSMs that may or may not get some traction, that may or may not be used. Right? And so really optimizing around that stuff is huge. Yeah.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Alex, I wanna ask you a question. Besides technology no. This is not an uh-oh.

Interlude:
It’s not I’m just trying

Kristi Faltorusso:
to this isn’t a game of gotcha. Besides technology, what is the 1 thing a customer needs in order to consider an effective scaled program?

Alex Turkovic:
The 1 thing.

Kristi Faltorusso:
The 1 thing. And I have a 1 thing in my head, and I wanna see if our 1 things match.

Alex Turkovic:
I think for me, I’m gonna I’m gonna classify the 1 thing as the most often missed thing, which is clarity of the journey. Like, clarity of where things start, where things end, especially with onboarding, but beyond onboarding. Like, what are the milestones that you that a good like a what’s the happy path milestones? And how are you compared to that? Because, you know, we don’t really I think by and large, we don’t share that stuff with our customers, and so our customers don’t know whether they’re in a good place or a bad place, and they don’t know what they don’t know. You know? So I think it’s it goes back to, like, transparency, having a really cleanly laid out kind of happy path for certain products and communicating that proactively very often.

Kristi Faltorusso:
I love that. Now, John, before I give my my thoughts on what, what would you say is the 1 thing besides technology that companies need in order to effectively scale?

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. I think I think they absolutely need the I mean, the trust of their customers is the first and foremost thing. And I think what happens is that we don’t we’ve skipped building trust. Our sales cycles don’t are not built around trust. They’re about features and and, you know, pitting 1 product against the other. And there’s so much rip and replace that’s happening. Yeah. That we don’t have people like, nobody’s been with this newest software for 10 years and deep, deep responsibility.

Jon Johnson:
Right? So if you’re gonna say, I’m gonna change your art your process Without trust, you’re gonna you’re gonna break. We actually just had this, and I’m gonna name drop them. We were we worked with Pendo, and we had, an experience where they did a big pivot last year from, you know, a a dedicated CSM to a pooled experience. And it was just, hey, you’re in a pool thing now. Here’s how you schedule your QBR. Somebody will reach out to you. And we were sitting there going like, we signed this contract like a year ago. What the fuck the fuck is going on? Like, what is going on? And that we took it we gave a lot of feedback to the team, and, you know, they’ve made some changes, and that’s great, but it happens every time.

Jon Johnson:
Is that there’s this big movement because it’s a business need, but to your point, it’s not a customer need.

Alex Turkovic:
Mhmm.

Jon Johnson:
And none of the customers are left feeling better of the experience. It doesn’t matter what the tool is. It doesn’t matter what the process is. They’re gonna they’re gonna they’re gonna lose. And we went through a massive amount of pain, and we’ve dropped off on adoption ever since. Like, it’s just there is a direct correlation between those 2 experiences. If you make these big swings without the trust of your customer, that you are doing what’s best for them, not what’s best for you as an organization. I know that there’s a median.

Jon Johnson:
You gotta find the middle of that, but that’s that’s my answer.

Alex Turkovic:
Goes back to that emotional intelligence thing. Yeah. Like, you know, you gotta know how that stuff’s gonna land.

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. And the worst part is, like, sometimes businesses make the decision knowing Right. That it’s going to like, an and people that are gonna budget for a loss of 10 to 15%.

Kristi Faltorusso:
But in that case, it’s a business decision, though. And and that’s and that’s okay too. Right? Like, I think my problem is for companies that make these decisions and are not anticipating that, and they’re not doing this with that outcome as a not even a possibility, a certainty. Right? Like, we have to do this as a business, and we anticipate that we are going to see x as a result. And as a business, we are okay with that. So I I think that there’s there’s 2 sides to that. Right? Like, there’s the business need of having to make that pivot and saying, like, we’re okay with that outcome. And then the companies that do that, and they’re like, I can’t believe it.

Kristi Faltorusso:
This is so surprising, and I think that’s crazy to me. Alright. So here’s what I loved is that you both gave awesome examples of what the top thing outside of technology could be. Right? And my third is a third. It’s not anything the 2 of you said, and I think all 3 of us have validity in saying that this is the most important, and mine would be data. Because I think if you don’t have data, it doesn’t matter what you have.

Jon Johnson:
Clean data.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Impossible to orchestrate anything effectively. And I know as much as you all know, companies don’t have that. Like

Alex Turkovic:
Yep.

Kristi Faltorusso:
It doesn’t I don’t even care how big you are, how much software you have. I like, I have yet to talk to any company that would bet their firstborn child that they have clean, accurate, and current data on their customers across the board.

Alex Turkovic:
Yeah.

Kristi Faltorusso:
They’re just not they just doesn’t exist.

Jon Johnson:
And most importantly, how to get

Kristi Faltorusso:
to that. Well, that’s a whole another thing. It’s like you trapped somewhere clocked up far far away. Like Yeah.

Alex Turkovic:
Yeah. Yeah.

Jon Johnson:
You have to

Kristi Faltorusso:
Forget it. The democratization of data, that doesn’t exist in anywhere. But so that would be my thing is because I feel like so many companies are trying to do these herculean things and, like, make all this change and wanna scale. And I’m like, well, what data are you using to orchestrate that? What data are you using to measure that? And then, yeah, just those 2 things is enough for me to, like, get them to be like, oh, I’m unsure.

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. Data is very much like the minds of Moria in

Kristi Faltorusso:
And I almost feel like it was such an obvious 1, which is probably why neither of you said it because it was just like a, of course, you need the data.

Alex Turkovic:
Yeah. Totally.

Jon Johnson:
But I will say also, you need the that is also what you need for anything else in this fucking business. Right. We don’t have it. And Yeah. We’re at, like, we’re look you’re when you’re when you’re looking at a CSP, when you’re looking at any tool Yeah. It comes down to how clean your data is. And and I get it’s amazing to me how nobody has this figured out. Mhmm.

Jon Johnson:
Like, nobody has this figured out. And and it is a constant battle with blaming product adoption on a CSM individual when there is actually no, like, taxonomy prior to that implementation that says they can even be successful.

Kristi Faltorusso:
I mean, that’s a whole

Alex Turkovic:
lot of things.

Jon Johnson:
We’re not like a heavy metric driven. Like, we’re not tied it in into, like, a company’s data lake or any any of that kind of stuff. So, like, we’re very much a silo which I kinda like because I don’t have to have these conversations. But all of our customers are deep in this process of just like, oh, yeah. We gotta get our process together. It’s like, I can’t help you with that. Like, I can’t help you with that. So let me know, and I’m just gonna keep updating.

Jon Johnson:
Saying in 3 months, they’re gonna have their processes. Maybe 6 months, and then nothing’s gonna happen until then. But somebody sold this without asking these questions.

Alex Turkovic:
Yeah. I’ve I have this thing called the digital CS sweet spot, which is basically a Venn diagram. And, you know, in it, our customer journey is 1 of them. So you gotta have your thought about customer journey. You gotta have some way to automate, you know, around that customer journey. And the last thing is is you need data. And the way I always describe it is like healthy ish data because you show you show me yeah. Exactly.

Alex Turkovic:
Show me somebody who says, hey. I have clean data. I’ll show you a liar. Yeah. But, you know, a a big part of what that boils down to is, like, being crystal clear about your what outcomes you wanna achieve, and then looking at what data do you need to support it, and then going and and, a, grading the quality of data, which is more than likely a d or an f at best. But and and then what are you gonna do to, like, shore up some of that data? So, you know, a a practical example of that is right now, we’re kind of redesigning how we do customer outreach, in our, call it, digital segment, like our no touch segment. And, you know, a big part of it, right, for the for the first couple of years is going to be manual account research, manual data, kind of, looking over the data, looking over contacts, making sure we have the right contacts in place, updating systems, and all that kind of stuff. And the problem with that is is as soon as you do it, the clock starts ticking again.

Alex Turkovic:
Yep. Because people change roles and people go to different companies and all that kind of, you know. So it’s like there there’s it’s like this never ending thing where you, you know, you you dig the hole a little bit deeper and then, you know, the soil comes back in and fills the hole back up. Which gets me to kind of the last point about this is my I have a lot of hope for, the the future state of machine learning in this whole thing. Because my you know, for instance, I think 1 of the best resources to really look at company data or or or an individual’s place within an organization or whatever is LinkedIn, because everybody’s kinda updating their LinkedIn profile. Right? And so the tooling that kind of already exists, but it’s patchwork to, like, scrape that stuff and scrape some other places to actively update contact data. That is just that’s just huge and solves a massive problem. We’re just not there yet in terms of maturity.

Alex Turkovic:
So

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I feel like that’s the period right there. Like, honestly, like, it’s true. Like, I I like how you’re thinking about, yeah, the frustration point, but also, like, some of the solutions. And this is something that I’ve seen too. It’s like when when we’re talking about all of this complex data, like, LLMs are the answer.

Jon Johnson:
Like, there is a solution that somebody is percolating inside of their caffeine in the brain that is saying, like, okay. I should be able to just plug something into data generally for a company and then assign a grade and then assign an access and answer these questions without having to be like, oh, I need to get this API key key and I need to connect with this engine. Like, just the process that we have to go through right now. Like, there is somebody out there

Alex Turkovic:
Yeah.

Jon Johnson:
That is taking all of these disparate places and saying, here’s where you’re at. Here’s where you need to go in order for you to meet your goals of x. Yep. So

Alex Turkovic:
Well, somebody recently told me that they’re running digital motions using LinkedIn ads, which I think is interesting.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Yeah. That’s interesting.

Jon Johnson:
They’re actively target

Alex Turkovic:
the right? They’re actively targeting their customers, like, for certain cut you know, for for this company at this, you know, role level title, whatever it is, with these LinkedIn ads about, like, you know, what they can do to help drive adoption and all that kind of stuff. It’s, like, crazy.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Well, retargeting in itself is, like, a very interesting experience, and it’s just, like, you have a conversation with somebody and all of a sudden your social media is giving you, like, content for these things. So III wonder how that’s performing because just as an end user, like, I don’t know how I feel about that experience. Feeling like that is infiltrating my personal social places, LinkedIn being a social platform. But I guess if it’s related and it’s relevant, maybe. I don’t know.

Alex Turkovic:
Yeah. I mean, that’s the key. Right? Again, emotional intelligence.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Right. And you on that 1.

Jon Johnson:
Man, I do I mean, I think, you know, as soon as the digital stuff came in to play whenever that happened

Alex Turkovic:
Mhmm.

Jon Johnson:
I blocked it out of my my memory. But the the the correlation with marketing is something that’s really interesting. Because prior to that, I always felt like CS was moving more and more closer to product, At least when it comes to, like, we do so much with feature requests, we do so much with bug fixes and support, and there’s just this, like, Venn diagram of product and the customer success. It’s really interesting. And I think what happens is or at least what I’ve seen happen in some of the roles that I’ve been at, is that we do get so focused on, you know, telemetry and usage and and this stuff that in an ideal state, sure, is an indicator of of great stuff, but it’s lacking the EQ. It’s lacking the gut. It’s lacking the human, the trust, all of that stuff that we also kinda need. And then we get into this digital world where we’re actually kinda copying a lot of stuff that marketing is doing, which actually is a lot of gut check stuff.

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. It’s a lot of looking at what’s happening in the industry today, and it’s a lot about what’s trending and about what people are responding to and and that kind of immediate stuff, that immediate feedback that we don’t get with just basic lagging usage indicators. Right? So there’s this pivot back into it, and I’m really excited for this pivot because I do like I do think it’s important for us to kinda think of ourselves as marketers, because we are competing even when they are customers. We are still competing for their attention. And I think a lot of CSMs act as if they have earned their attention because they signed a contract. And there is this mindset that that’s actually not true. You have to actually earn that contact every single time.

Alex Turkovic:
Mhmm.

Jon Johnson:
And it doesn’t just come from having a good call and providing value. It means not pissing them off with sending 20 emails in a quarter or a month or whatever. Like, all of these different things that we do as CSMs where we just overload our customers with work. And and that’s 1 of the things that I’ve started coaching is very much like, do you know how many other CSMs your point of contact is working with on a daily basis? Like, do you know who else is reaching out to them? And most of them like, oh, I’ve never asked that. And we did some stats and, like, a good portion of our individual customers that we work with have 6 or 7 CSMs that they work with. Right? On any number of products. Some of them are are competing. Some of them are not.

Jon Johnson:
Just in general, like, if we’re talking with an ops guy, there’s, like, 6 or 7 CSMs that’s trying to get a QBR, that’s trying to get a status update, that’s asking them about usage. And if their job just becomes, I have to communicate with CSMs, like, that’s that’s a pretty shitty job. Right? Like, that takes away the actual time for them to do work.

Alex Turkovic:
We could flip this whole thing on its head. We could say, hey, you know, there’s a middle there’s there’s yeah. There’s like a middle CSM per customer contact and that CSM, like, is subcontracted by all the vendors.

Kristi Faltorusso:
So we’re making you can have a central

Jon Johnson:
CSM for

Kristi Faltorusso:
all of your CSMs for any company. I’m interested.

Jon Johnson:
That’s right. There was a there was a project that I was working on with a big customer of mine, and it was with, like, a a secondary product that wasn’t a competitor, but we had an integration. And I was working with my point of contact who was bringing in the CSM from this other company. And this guy in the middle was just kinda getting in the way. Like, not in a bad way, but he was just like Mhmm. It took him a while to get back because he was really busy. And I was like, can you just, like, hook me up with your CSM? Yeah. And so I’ve got this, like, chain of these other CSMs that manage the same customer in the same account.

Alex Turkovic:
Interesting. And

Jon Johnson:
then we talk to each other, and we have, like, status updates on products. And I’m like, this is actually this works actually a lot better in within reason. Obviously, there’s NDAs and all kinds of stuff. Like, we’re all on the same project team. But it’s been really fun to, like what’s it like for you? Do you like them? What’s working for you guys? Are you okay with this as well?

Alex Turkovic:
Yeah. Well, it I mean, it is interesting because, you know, I think if if you are someone who uses you know, who is kind of the main point of contact or the main buyer for a a large portion of the tech stack within your company, I think it makes sense to treat it much like you would like in, you know, a period of internal QBRs where you set aside some time, and you review each platform on a regular basis, and you invite your vendors to come in at that time. And and in large organizations, I mean, why not hire somebody to do that? Like, to manage manage your vendors and and be that central point. I

Kristi Faltorusso:
mean, interestingly enough, really large companies do have that. They have, like, a vendor they have a vendor management organization and their entire job is to 1, like, work they’re not even procurement. Right? Like, they’re working with procurement. They’re working with legal, but the goal is to make sure that each team who has procured the software is getting what they need from it, managing all of the feature requests and updates, and, like, they are that central hub, which is also really interesting. But it would be cool to see a function like that scaled down from from not just super, super large enterprises.

Jon Johnson:
Well, because, like, that is a need, like, especially if we’re going into this digital world where, like, a lot of people are spending a lot of time, not just on digital CS, but also compartmentalizing,

Kristi Faltorusso:
you know, functions that are getting on, I think. An average size company has over 200 SaaS applications. Yeah. Over 200 I think

Jon Johnson:
that’s too many.

Kristi Faltorusso:
I mean, like, half of them, they have more they have more platforms than they do employees. Like,

Alex Turkovic:
That’s right.

Kristi Faltorusso:
So Yeah. Yeah. I mean, 1, consolidation. That’s a conversation. There’s a lot of overlap in functionality, and we see that because a lot of companies, I think, are going through that consolidation process right now. But then too, like, who manages 200 applications?

Jon Johnson:
Mhmm.

Alex Turkovic:
I know. Unreal. I do see us marching towards this more Khan Academy style world, If you’re familiar with that, where basically, you know, you’re in in Khan Academy, basically, your student goes through the lecture, you know, virtually and then they come to class and that’s time to actually talk about stuff that’s, you know, productive and important. And and, I’ve been chatting with, for example, I’ve been chatting with Percy Rose at HPE for a little bit, and he’s effectively using, you know, Cast App to do these regular business reviews, virtually with his customers, which I think is a really cool way of just getting the mundane stuff out of the way. You know? You get your ticket volumes and your bugs and your ticket blah blah blah. You get all that crap out of the way so that you’re actually spending the time talking about, okay. How are we gonna improve this for you? And how are we gonna, you know, drive those out?

Kristi Faltorusso:
Right. Because say 1 might even

Alex Turkovic:
You know?

Kristi Faltorusso:
Say that those types of things shouldn’t even be part of the EBR, QBR process.

Jon Johnson:
It should not. Right.

Kristi Faltorusso:
That shouldn’t even be a thing.

Alex Turkovic:
Or the core process.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Right. Yes.

Jon Johnson:
Core.

Alex Turkovic:
But to put Christy

Jon Johnson:
Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.

Kristi Faltorusso:
That takes See? See? I could solve everybody’s problem if I could figure out how to get company’s data accurate, clean, current, get updated fast so it’s not irrelevant. We should go solve that problem.

Alex Turkovic:
You would make a million dollars.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Like, literally, tomorrow I’d be a millionaire.

Alex Turkovic:
1. I would

Kristi Faltorusso:
just make a $1, 000, 000. Just $1, 000, 000. Feels limited. My TAM is small. I’m telling you my TAM is small. I’m not interested. Forget it. I’m out.

Jon Johnson:
We need more product lines, Christie.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Are you gonna upsell them?

Jon Johnson:
No. Now this is this is also kinda 1 of those interesting things that happens with digital CS and CX, which is what I think that we should all be calling it because that’s what it is. It is customer experience. We cannot guarantee success. We are guaranteeing an experience. But I sat in on a community call that, a friend of mine, schedules, like, once a month. Her name is Julie over at Kenny, and we actually talked through, like, QBRs. Like, they’re like, I cannot get my customers on QBRs.

Jon Johnson:
Right? And as somebody who comes from a 1 to 1, like, very white white glove approach model and is working with our scale team to try to figure out how we’re providing not the same, but similar outputs. A lot of people we use Matic.

Alex Turkovic:
I know a lot

Jon Johnson:
of people use Matic and other other tools for these, like, digital automated they call them QBRs. And the value that I’ve actually found out of it is with these automated QBRs that go out these, you know, 87 page slide decks on usage and features, all this kind of stuff. I then get on a call. I don’t have to talk about any of that shit. Yeah. Like, there is no like, it is a blunt 1 blank page with my executives to talk about, like, what their goals are, which is what they should be. And I think to your point, Christy, I think I remember, like, years ago when we started talking about this. When you were, I think, maybe just a guess.

Jon Johnson:
Like, we talked about your custom customer outcome review or whatever it was, and how we just need to get the fuck away from usage on our QBRs and our EBRs. Mhmm. And I’ve I still see it every single day where, you know, CSM will just, like, talk about how many session units or how many log calls or all this kind of stuff. And the CEO is sitting there going like Listen.

Kristi Faltorusso:
You know what has to happen? The problem is, like, all these things are are are trash. I’m sorry. I’ve seen, like, I even though this conversation continues to happen all the time, I’ve have not seen anybody, like, nail this or get it better. What we need to start asking leaders upfront, like the executive sponsors, how because all all that is is the objective of these things is to validate success, validate outcomes, validate that you’re getting value. So why don’t you ask them on day 1? We have a multitude of ways that we can help communicate this to you. What is your preferred mechanism? Would you like to receive this asynchronously? Would you like to receive a report? Would you like to have a formal review process where we get on a call together? Why aren’t we giving people options so they can opt in to the way that they want to receive those updates? Instead, we force people into these weird emotions that are a waste of time and don’t even land the value that we think in our selfish minds that it does.

Alex Turkovic:
Well, I

Jon Johnson:
know why too, but

Kristi Faltorusso:
I’m not gonna say it out loud because I’m gonna ostracize a lot of people. A lot of people are gonna be doing a lot of internal looking at themselves in the mirror.

Jon Johnson:
I I think it’s very clear. I and I’m a big fan of calling this out too. It’s something that I’m in the process of doing with a lot of the the folks that I talk to. Like, if if if they don’t if our leadership doesn’t have a way to track and repeat something, then they are not providing value.

Alex Turkovic:
Right.

Jon Johnson:
Like, this is a middle management dilemma, and it is fucking with a lot of actual success in customer. Not that middle management is bad Yeah. But because we need to say, like, okay. Well, I need, GRR of x percent, and then you kinda break it down into your VP and then your director and then your manager and then your team lead. And you’ve gotta have little things that they all do. Mhmm. And they all kind of feed up into this OKR model or v 2 mom or whatever organizational, like, approval system you’re working through. When in reality, like, if I were to go to my boss and be like, okay.

Jon Johnson:
This subset wants digital, this subset wants, in person, this subset wants whatever it is, then my boss would be like, I don’t know how to communicate this to you. Can you just, like like, we’re gonna mail mark all these guys at risk. And then you start treating them differently. And it’s like, but you’re you’re not actually looking at what the customer wants and what the customer needs. And I don’t I don’t know how

Kristi Faltorusso:
to predict that. People are like, well,

Jon Johnson:
we can’t track it.

Kristi Faltorusso:
We can’t do it. Right? Like, it has to be something you can manage or measure or else it’s not gonna help our process. We can’t scale it. And I think it’s like it comes down to, okay, but I I wouldn’t I wouldn’t necessarily say that you can’t. I don’t think that we’re thinking creatively enough on how Yeah. We should. Right. Right? So we stick to these, like, oh, okay.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Is there a quick easy way to do this Instead of thinking creatively, at least initially to say, okay. Maybe this isn’t quick and easy, but it’s gonna give us what we need to say, like, yes. This was a success.

Alex Turkovic:
Yeah. And and Well,

Jon Johnson:
and this comes down to Alex. I’m just gonna keep that now.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Become like he’s Josh.

Jon Johnson:
For a few minutes.

Alex Turkovic:
I mean, I’m just gonna I’m just gonna mute myself.

Kristi Faltorusso:
If you could just leave and let me

Interlude:
and John

Jon Johnson:
be alone, that would be

Kristi Faltorusso:
great.

Jon Johnson:
That would be great. It’s my dream. Go ahead, Alex.

Alex Turkovic:
I don’t even know what I was gonna say. No. Perfect. See you later. I think I think, a lot of what we overlook sometimes is that we can ask our customers this stuff.

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. But why won’t our bosses listen to them?

Alex Turkovic:
Well, and the other thing too is, like, what do you what do y’all’s take on SMS text?

Interlude:
Oh. Yeah. I’m gonna give you I’m gonna give you a big fat it depends

Kristi Faltorusso:
too on that.

Alex Turkovic:
It depends on I don’t

Jon Johnson:
have good feelings.

Alex Turkovic:
Really?

Jon Johnson:
I also think good feelings about cell phones and call cold calling,

Alex Turkovic:
like Modern technology.

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. Yeah. If I could get a carrier pigeon, I will sign a contract any day.

Alex Turkovic:
Well, here’s the deal though. As an option, like, in certain industries, you have executive leaders who live on their phones. Yeah. They just they just do. They’re not necessarily checking email, whatever. And again, certain industries, it doesn’t apply to all just like we said earlier. Like, 1 digital motion does not fit into the next digital motion. Right? But in those industries where it makes sense, why not give your customer the option to be communicated with via Well,

Kristi Faltorusso:
this this is exactly what we said. Right? Like, you need the optionality. So give people options and let them opt into the things and the ways. It’s like the what do you want and then what is the mechanism in which you want it.

Jon Johnson:
I okay. Yes. I hear you. But, Alex, I’m gonna be the devil’s advocate here.

Alex Turkovic:
Please.

Jon Johnson:
That’s the way that emails used to be, and then everybody got fucking over emailed.

Alex Turkovic:
Sure.

Jon Johnson:
And now we have too many Slack groups.

Kristi Faltorusso:
On the high fidelity Slack.

Jon Johnson:
We have too many LinkedIn groups, and then we have too many private communities, and we have too many I swear to god, if everybody transitions over to SMS

Alex Turkovic:
Yeah.

Jon Johnson:
Then it’s gonna be we need to upgrade it.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Well, okay. I’m actually here for the blackberry, like, come back if we could because I miss BBM. Yeah.

Alex Turkovic:
I need BBM. I need this physical

Kristi Faltorusso:
John, you would be my favorite BBMer. And then we can get next sells

Alex Turkovic:
too while we’re at it. Physical keyboard.

Jon Johnson:
Absolute no. So but my point is if we can if we look for where people are Mhmm. We soil fertile ground. And I actually mean that in

Kristi Faltorusso:
a Yeah.

Jon Johnson:
In a negative way. Poor opportunity

Alex Turkovic:
Sure. Yeah.

Jon Johnson:
From, like, this industry. Like, I don’t answer phone calls now. If I don’t have it in my phone I even don’t answer it right now. I have it

Kristi Faltorusso:
in my phone.

Jon Johnson:
That’s why I’m screening

Kristi Faltorusso:
all of my calls. Yeah.

Alex Turkovic:
It explains a lot of them. Responsive.

Jon Johnson:
Well, yeah, Christy. But but no. And I think this is the thing is that we are always hunting for, like, the next thing

Kristi Faltorusso:
that we can, like, how

Jon Johnson:
do we get people’s attention?

Alex Turkovic:
Mhmm.

Jon Johnson:
And I think we need to really back out.

Alex Turkovic:
Well, we need to

Kristi Faltorusso:
ask why are they ignoring us?

Jon Johnson:
We have everything so good.

Kristi Faltorusso:
That. Like, people aren’t responding. They’re not engaging because we’re doing it wrong. Instead, we keep trying to do more and more and more and then just be everywhere, and we’re just annoying.

Alex Turkovic:
We live in this environment where dopamine is just constantly created by everything that’s around us. You know? Like like and it stresses me out too. Like, you know, I have a hard time putting my phone down sometimes. And when I do, you know, when I do make a conscious effort for the first 2 2 days of develop hives, you know, it’s that kind of thing.

Jon Johnson:
It’s it’s

Alex Turkovic:
real. It’s real. It’s real. It’s real. It’s real.

Kristi Faltorusso:
It’s real. It’s real. It’s real. It’s real. It’s scratching.

Alex Turkovic:
What’s going on?

Kristi Faltorusso:
Sweats and, yeah, stuff.

Alex Turkovic:
And and so that’s that’s where I think okay. Again, this emotional intelligence thing comes around because you know that whoever you’re talking with is the exact same way. They’re getting notifications on their computer and they’re getting notifications here and whatever. The ring doorbell has a somebody at the front, like, above.

Kristi Faltorusso:
The dogs are always missing or frogs. They’re always getting out.

Alex Turkovic:
That’s right. And so if you can weasel your it’s not weasel you want, but

Kristi Faltorusso:
if you can

Jon Johnson:
weasel, that’s it. That’s what we do.

Alex Turkovic:
But if you can if you can slide your way in in a way that that is like, you know, I’m here. I’m not pushing stuff on you. We’re just here to support you. I think that’s the magic sauce in terms of

Kristi Faltorusso:
John is really good at sliding in people’s DMs, so maybe he can give us a course.

Jon Johnson:
Okay. Christy has some insider information that I feel like she’s bearing the lead a little bit on this.

Kristi Faltorusso:
I think we need to wrap

Alex Turkovic:
it up

Kristi Faltorusso:
because I think if Josh was here, Josh would be like, you know what? Click end the conversation.

Alex Turkovic:
Would have.

Jon Johnson:
He he would just

Kristi Faltorusso:
he would have

Jon Johnson:
said it. He just cuts

Kristi Faltorusso:
it off. He just hits the the leave button, and we’re all disconnected. It’s the sadness ending of every of every relationship.

Jon Johnson:
We’re gonna end because our producer won’t edit anything longer than a certain length, and we’re getting close to that length. But I have a couple more questions for Alex the weasel Turkovich.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Wow. Is anyone else envisioning the Malibu in the lion king right now? Because I’m getting a very specific visual, and I think we do a little side by side action and see

Alex Turkovic:
I just see Pauley short and see

Kristi Faltorusso:
no names. It’s a easel. Diesel. Yeah. We we we squeeze the juice or we we use the juice or what was he doing? He was like Losing

Jon Johnson:
the juice. Yeah.

Alex Turkovic:
He was using the juice. That’s how

Jon Johnson:
I am. For you, what do you see or what do you what are you looking for out of, kind of the future of digital customers to your guys?

Alex Turkovic:
Golly, dude.

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. I know it’s a great question.

Alex Turkovic:
I I want us I want us to be in this world where our stuff just talks to each other, and we can interact with our tech stack in a human kind of way, which is coming. Right? But, like, if we need to go do an outreach or whatever, we just talk to our tech stack and it makes it happen. We don’t have to spend all this time kind of, you know, Again, it’s that building efficiency into your human process because we all have stuff that we wanna go do that we know we’re never gonna get to do. Right. It’s not about reducing head count. It’s not about, like, all that kind of stuff. It’s about, like, doing the shit that we actually wanna go do.

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. Like, I need AI to do my dishes.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Oh, that’s so interesting.

Jon Johnson:
Create another Drake.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Wait until your kids are old enough.

Jon Johnson:
Right? I know. Right? Well, thank you, Alex. This is this has been wonderful. I I always love spending time with you, Christy as well. You are a pleasure.

Kristi Faltorusso:
I am a saint.

Jon Johnson:
We love you.

Alex Turkovic:
Mhmm. And Dory and Boaz.

Jon Johnson:
Josh, Schachter is

Kristi Faltorusso:
Is that no. He’s talking to an apple wine.

Jon Johnson:
What are you doing? Drinking wine.

Kristi Faltorusso:
He’s probably sitting he’s definitely sitting in an Adirondack chair somewhere. Right? Yeah. Definitely. I mean, he’s probably sweating. Yeah. Definitely. So that’s, like, something else that’s happening. He’s definitely sweating.

Kristi Faltorusso:
Yeah.

Jon Johnson:
He’s definitely sweating.

Kristi Faltorusso:
He’s definitely eating mosquitoes. So Jess is definitely probably, like, already yelled at him 3 times for for 7 different things.

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. Yeah. We know his partner,

Kristi Faltorusso:
so we have, like,

Jon Johnson:
it’s fun to be able to

Kristi Faltorusso:
pick on him.

Jon Johnson:
We love Jess. But that’s it for today.

Alex Turkovic:
And we’re gonna

Kristi Faltorusso:
do proper goodbyes. We can all actually say goodbye without him just Yeah.

Jon Johnson:
Clicking on.

Kristi Faltorusso:
So goodbye, everybody.

Alex Turkovic:
Well, thank you for both for having me. It was, educational and enlightening and wonderful. I love you both, and it was great to have you.

Jon Johnson:
Hearts. Yeah. We love you guys too.