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Josh Schachter:
Hello, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Unchurned. I’m Josh Schachter, here with my cohost, John Johnson.

Jon Johnson:
John Johnson.

Josh Schachter:
John yeah. It’s I like that pronunciation. And we have a special guest. We always have a special guest. Our special guest this episode is Kelly McGuire. Kelly is the VP of customer success at EverStage, which is doing some really cool stuff with sales compensation management. And they’re they’re on, like, this hockey stick curve from what I’ve been told and and what I know. So we wanna hear more about that.

Josh Schachter:
Kelly, thank you for joining the program.

Kelly McGuire:
Yeah, guys. Excited to be here. Looking forward to chatting.

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. Oh, happy Monday. We are we are recording this on Presidents’ Day twenty twenty five. So, I always like to give a little bit of a time stamp when we’re working on holidays. I don’t Because Josh made us

Josh Schachter:
I I don’t like to give the time stamp. You always do this because, like, we’re you know that you know that our podcast producer is out right now for a few weeks.

Jon Johnson:
He’s This won’t be out for a couple weeks, but I when when people listen, I want them to know that Josh made me work on a holiday again.

Josh Schachter:
Yeah. Well, you know,

Kelly McGuire:
again all day, guys. So I’m happy to start with you all.

Josh Schachter:
She’s like, let’s get to it.

Jon Johnson:
I got to actually into the stage of growth that you’re in. No.

Kelly McGuire:
It is obviously. Yes.

Jon Johnson:
No days up. But that gets us into the, like, the stage of growth that you’re in, Kelly. So you’re talking a little bit earlier, a bit of a hockey stick moment for you guys. Obviously, sales commissions is huge. We gotta get those hunters paid. Why don’t you

Josh Schachter:
It’s it’s not it’s not a CS commission compensation management software just by the way. Just to be clear. That’s why

Jon Johnson:
I said hunters and not farmers. No.

Josh Schachter:
It is. It is. Alright. Go ahead

Kelly McGuire:
and correct

Josh Schachter:
me, Kelly.

Kelly McGuire:
It can be both. Right? It just could be. It it it It just

Jon Johnson:
isn’t, but it could be.

Kelly McGuire:
For many of our customers, it is. Right? It’s really about revolutionizing sales compensation management, and and that can stem, as you all know, well beyond just a hunter. Yeah. But, you know, a lot of sales compensation platforms just haven’t evolved to meet modern organizational needs and are a decade behind, and we’re disrupt EverStage is disrupting the space big time. And I think we’re helping kind of both sides of of the the sales compensation world. Right? We’re helping the rev ops teams, the sales ops teams really automate and drive more efficiency in how they manage and process commissions so that they can get those people paid. And then really empowering the the sellers, the account managers, in some cases, customer success managers, really anybody who’s on a a commissionable employee, to to empower them and motivate them to drive more success for their ability to close deals and have more understanding of what could be possible in the business. And so that definitely stems beyond hunters too for sure.

Josh Schachter:
Yeah. Okay.

Jon Johnson:
I you go ahead, John. Josh, I have important things to say this time.

Josh Schachter:
Always.

Jon Johnson:
No. Okay. So this this is actually something that we don’t necessarily talk a lot about on this podcast. We talk a lot about processes for CSMs and leadership. But, like, the motivating factor, this has been a new thing that I’ve been spending a lot of time in. We just got new comp plans at work and kinda talking about how to align on these things. Right? So, what you just kinda talked about is, I mean, are the commissions driving the right business outcomes, which is a huge, like, that’s a CS term. Right? That’s what we talk about.

Jon Johnson:
So when you start talking about it, I don’t know many CSMs that are really, really bought into understanding comp models and structures to actually drive maybe not the individual OKRs or outcomes of the CSM, but of the organization. Right? We kinda sit in our own world. So I’d love to hear from you how you’re kind of bridging the gap with a CS team that is selling this product that probably should understand how comp models actually drive the outcomes that we want aside from EBRs and and meetings, but, like, the actual driver of those outcomes.

Kelly McGuire:
Yeah. I mean, you know, when when someone asks me what I do and they don’t know tech, I generally say I lead sales teams.

Josh Schachter:
Yeah.

Kelly McGuire:
Right? Because at the end of the day, CS is very much the same thing, but we’re doing it from a relationship lens. And we’re taking that customer who purchases, in my case, EverStage and initially sees us as a vendor. Right? You buy a tech stack off of a shelf and you instantly that organization is gonna see you as a vendor. But you need to as a CSM, you’re taking that vendor all the way up to what I call a trusted advisor. Right? Changing that perspective. And you’re doing that by creating mutually beneficial opportunities to grow the relationship. And all of that results in growth for the partnership, success for the customer, paramount first and foremost. That’s table stakes.

Kelly McGuire:
But then when you when you bring in a CS team and a philosophy in CS that you’re not just the air traffic controller, you’re not just the person in the muck, right, trying

Jon Johnson:
to fix

Kelly McGuire:
everything, but you’re getting back up here and understanding what that customer is trying to accomplish strategically. And then as a partner with your platform, your service, your solution, you’re helping quantify how we’re getting them there quicker, faster, harder, and that leads to expanded revenue and growth with the partnership many times, if not all.

Jon Johnson:
I love that. No. I love that. Okay. You said you said, something about a mission a CS mission. Do you have, like, a personal mission and vision for customer success? Do you have, like, an elevator pitch or something sexy that you’ve, like, come up with? Or what is your ethos behind this?

Kelly McGuire:
I wouldn’t say that I have, like, one specific elevator pitch, because I think that customer success at its core, is really about that strategic partnership and how you deliver and partnership generally varies based on the organization that you’re in, business that you’re in, the domain, whatever it may be. My ethos as a CS leader is something that I call the comfort zone philosophy. And what I mean by that is,

Josh Schachter:
Always be in your comfort zone. No. No. Oh oh oh, no. Oh, I see.

Jon Johnson:
Josh, you’re fine.

Kelly McGuire:
You know, people love their comfort zone. It’s like a warm, happy, fuzzy place. Right? They know it there. They feel comfortable there. And that comfort zone could be at work. It could be in their personal life. It could be in any way, shape, or form. The first place that people go psychologically when you’re forced out of your comfort zone is fear.

Kelly McGuire:
Right? It’s just where the brain goes because you’re doing something you’re not used to or you’re trying something for the first time. I was raised an athlete. I’m still very much, like, an athlete in my mind. And so I think about I think it was Michael Jordan’s quote, I don’t remember, who said, it takes one second to be brave. Right? Yeah. And whatever it is, you’re done. Right? So when I joined EverStage, I sat my CS team down, and I said, okay. Let’s talk about the fact that, you know, you’ve been in your comfort zone, in a very great comfort zone.

Kelly McGuire:
Right? It’s why we’re leading in the industry in a lot of ways, especially in our white glove kind of customer approach. But what I’m gonna do is force you out of that comfort zone, and you’re gonna live in the fear zone a little. Once you move through that fear zone, and we’ll move through it together, you enter the learn zone and then the growth zone. And that’s where all the magic happens for you, for your customers, for our business. Right? So those are the that’s really kind of, I’d say, my ethos in terms of how I lead. And

Josh Schachter:
Sounds like Phil Jackson over here.

Jon Johnson:
I know you’re Yeah. I’m just saying, like, you have the little, like, the triangle behind your Yeah.

Kelly McGuire:
I have a I have a circle diagram that I put off the wall with my team. I actually just was on an interview when I showed this candidate this because they asked me kind of, like, how I lead. And, you know, I was walking in New York City, I’d probably say about a year or two ago now, and I looked down and I stepped on, like, you know, the sidewalk. There was a little graffiti stamp, and it said your comfort zone will kill you. And it’s like the universe being like, yes, Kelly. Like, this is exactly what you preach. Right? You cannot do that. And I I think that that that goes into play with elevating the customer experience and some of the things we’ve continued to do at EverStage, things that we’re gonna continue to do as we grow and kinda double down on the growth for our customers.

Kelly McGuire:
And, honestly, how I live my life too. I live a lot in the fear zone and the learn zone and the growth zone because the comfort zone is, like, it’s comforting, but you’re not gonna experience new things there.

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. I have a couple questions on that, Josh. Do you have anything you wanna jump in that’s just like

Josh Schachter:
No. No. No. No. No. You’re You look

Jon Johnson:
like you wanna cut me off.

Josh Schachter:
So No. No. Usually, I do. Today I know.

Jon Johnson:
I know. Yeah. You are a leader in this high growth stage. Right? So, obviously, you’re gonna have folks on your team that have various experience from the industry, but also from, like, the segment you guys are in. How do you coach your leaders in out of that comfort zone into that into that growth and from that fear? Right? Like, that’s that’s, like, heart stuff. Right? That’s different than just like, hey. Hit hit your numbers, and I’m gonna be a sales leader and rah rah rah. Yeah.

Jon Johnson:
But this actually is tactical, and and I really love that because it feel like CS is kind of the heartbeat of sales. So walk me through how you actually, like, tactically get

Kelly McGuire:
Yeah.

Jon Johnson:
People into and out of those phases.

Kelly McGuire:
Yeah. So I, I spent about five years in consulting, kind of throughout my career, and that was honestly where I got to really hone in on a lot of these strategic skills. One of the things that I took with me is just behaviorally how we learn. Like, our brains, how we learn. Right? I worked with some behavioral scientists. A lot of times when we try to teach something, we just tell someone what it is. We’re gonna we’re gonna teach you a concept. Now go try it in your real life scenarios.

Kelly McGuire:
It’s not setting anybody up to succeed. Right? So what I try to do is is I I teach somebody a concept, and then we practice it in safe environments. Right? So whether it’s a new tool for customer success, whether it’s a new tactic in navigating our strategic customers, whether it’s a new process for making ourselves more effective and efficient operationally internally. We practice these things in a safe environment so that your muscle memory can build so that and then and and then you apply that in real life scenarios. And what I do throughout all of those steps is I coach. Right? So I am a very much, like, a player coach. Right? When I start at an organization, I did this at EverStage. I’m still doing this here.

Kelly McGuire:
I did this at my last org my one previous. I take a customer account or two or in, you know, in EverStage case, right, I take a few, and I start to to to understand how the the customer journey works today. So that I’m building credibility with my people on the front lines. Right? I think the biggest mistake any new leader comes in is they don’t roll up their sleeves and get dirty in the mop with the team and or they try to change things right away. Right? My favorite question when I’m interviewing if I like, when I was interviewing at, you know, for for this role is, what would you change right away? My response is nothing.

Jon Johnson:
Yeah.

Kelly McGuire:
Right? I’d learn. I’d listen. Right? And I’d listen to listen, not listen to respond. But I’d really try to retain and understand the circumstances within the business so that when I’m making decisions or suggestions for what we do to enhance or improve, they’re they’re backed by by some content, by some experience, and then we’re practicing that together in a safe environment so that when my CS team has to go and apply it to real life scenarios with customers, that muscle memory is built already. Right? And they feel more confident in flexing that muscle and, again, coming full circle, stepping back out of their comfort zone.

Josh Schachter:
Yeah. Well, you know, you you were you were at at Sisense earlier before you you left forever stage

Jon Johnson:
Yes.

Josh Schachter:
Which, by the way, like, looks at your LinkedIn and some phenomenal growth there, personal growth in a short amount of time, leveling up, through the the stack there. But, when you came like, that that’s a large organization. It’s still not a huge organization, but a large organization, you you know, by an order of magnitude than EverStage. So does this scale, this approach of, like, you can take one or two accounts on your own and and and really %. Yeah.

Kelly McGuire:
%. Right? So, you know, again, for me, I I I really made a calculated decision to join Everestage for kind of three things, the people, the product, and the mission. The people are some of the smartest that if not the smartest I’ve worked with in in the industry, not just in CS, but across the the entire org. The mission of revolutionizing kind of both sides of the house as I mentioned. Right? Really improving the sales ops, rev ops teams, operational infrastructure, and automation of commission, but that empowering and motivating people in the right ways. And then the product really you know, we’re the fastest growing product in the space, and we are continuing to to grab more of that total addressable market. And the ability to to bring this philosophy in at this tenure was incredibly exciting to me, because we’re all still you know, we’re all rolling up our sleeves and and, you know, building this together. And not to say that that wasn’t the case in my former org or other orgs, but there’s something super differentiated here, and it’s it’s why I know this is this is my home.

Josh Schachter:
But but you can but just to be clear, like, because, what I’m trying to do is talk to to folks that listen that might be at slightly larger organizations. Yeah. You you can do this as well at a larger org.

Kelly McGuire:
I still did it. Right? When I was the VP of customer care at Sisense, right, while I’m managing customer success, implementation, professional services, there were still about five, six legacy accounts that had been mined from the jump, and they were still mined the day I exited. I still actually have great relationships with some of those at

Josh Schachter:
She took the good ones, John. She took the

Jon Johnson:
good ones. No. But I I think this, like, this goes to a point. Like and I I don’t know, how often you see this in leadership where most of the time, like, I’ve been in those interviews interviewing for director or head of role. Right? And you’re talking about how you’re gonna serve those above you. Mhmm. But it sounds like you’ve got this really intelligent approach of saying, yeah. I’m gonna serve those above me, but I can’t do that without those below me or in the base.

Jon Johnson:
And I think as somebody who’s been a part of massive organizational change after organizational change, you have new people come in, and then it feels like whiplash because they make the changes. But if you spend three, four, six months of understanding the organization, you might make the same changes. You may have everything in your head from day one that you do on day 90 or a 20 and you make those changes, but those changes actually carry an impact on day one twenty versus day one.

Kelly McGuire:
And I have more situational fluency of what’s going to be at the existing org. Right? Yeah. That yes. My idea of what the right quarterly business review looks like and format is gonna be, I’d say, 80% the same kind of organization over organization, but that 20% difference is gonna be really customized to the the context and the the relevancy of what I’ve spent my time learning and what myself and my team has spent our time perfecting.

Josh Schachter:
Yeah. What did you learn when you when you came into EverStage that was different than what you went in there expecting? Whether it was something a fact about the company or maybe your own operating principle or approach that you wanted to apply? Was there anything any delta there?

Kelly McGuire:
You know, I think for for me, the biggest uh-huh, and I I assume this, but my assumption was validated as I met more people within the org is that there’s there’s no ego. There is an incredibly there’s just this humility in the way everybody operates and this collective effort to win. Right? It’s also part of the reason why I was so, moved by whatever Sage is doing and the fact that they were bringing in a VP of CS, I’d say, this early on in the company’s history. Right? We were found here in 2020, and in 2024, they made the decision to bring a VP of CS in. A lot of times, they do not do that. Right? They they put a a a director or a head of, and that person just throws headcount at the problems. Mhmm. And I didn’t wanna do that.

Kelly McGuire:
Right? And I wanted to be at a place that where where the customer experience was the ethos of of the business. And, again, my philosophy is customer is the heartbeat of the York. If you don’t have teams and systems to support that heart, none of it’s gonna work. Right? The fact that they made such a calculated decision to bring in somebody at my level, and to to do that so again, not early, but so much earlier than others that I’ve worked at or been part of, huge differentiator in the space. And the fact that we all just operate with that no ego mentality, and we’re just building and doing this together and having a great time doing it, has been such a blessing in validating that assumption that of what I thought when I walked in.

Jon Johnson:
That’s great. No. I I’ve I thought we’ve been, you know, we’ve been doing this for is it two years now, Josh, for the podcast? And, like, you know, I’m starting we’re starting to talk to a lot more folks that are in earlier earlier stages of business, and it kinda starts to feel like there’s a little bit more of that energy back of builders. So just like we all have experience, and maybe we were just the youth of our days fifteen years ago when everybody else was building. But, like, it is nice to kinda catch your breath and then go back to building and find something that is less ego and more outcome driven.

Kelly McGuire:
It’s absolutely why I wanted you know, when I when I was thinking about what my next step would be, I really wanted a place where I could build from the ground up. Right? And we have an incredible foundation of customer success professionals. We have an in house implementation team, which is a huge differentiator in our space, but in really any software space. Let’s be real. And but for me, I wanted to to be able to bring that that ethos of the customer being the heartbeat of the org, match that with the leadership and organization that that operates in the same way. And as someone who just came back from our company kickoff two weeks ago, I mean, that was the theme of our not just our GTM kickoff, but our company wide kickoff, how every individual person is responsible for the success of the customer and what that means based on your teams, your roles, and your your your kind of home within the EverStage org. And it was, again, best kickoff I’ve ever been part of. And and just continuing that momentum is gonna be really exciting in 2025 and beyond.

Josh Schachter:
John, Kelly Kelly strike I’ve had a couple interactions with Kelly, and she strikes me as somebody who is no bullshit. Yes. And yet, she has been so effusive of of glowing, beaming with excitement. Like, just beaming. I spoke to her last week and and and just beaming with excitement about EverStage. I’m like, it’s gotta be bullshit, but she’s not a bullshitter. So it’s just it’s it’s it’s fun to see, like, just this glow that when she talks about this this growth company. Yeah.

Josh Schachter:
I don’t know what the question is there yet.

Jon Johnson:
No. Well, I I I’m gonna heap some more praise on you too. But, I mean, I think I think when you talk about lack of ego, it’s it’s really important. You said something early in the pod, where CS is is just another form of sales, and we rely on relationships for sales versus pipeline generation, which is so true. And and I and I really like it doesn’t feel like there’s any silos in your mind that that the organization is working for the company. I think as you get bigger and you work with larger companies and you get into the enterprise of global space, you have to kinda silo yourself. Right? And then you hear, like, sales works by itself and CS works by itself, and there’s all this friction between them. But coming back to where you’re you’re starting from, where there is no silo, it is just this organization is moving towards a customer goal, and here’s how everybody fits in that space.

Jon Johnson:
And I and I really like that model. And and coming back to, like, customer success is an organizational mission. People say that a lot, but it sounds like the success of your customers that you’re working with is the goal and the the implement that you’re working under. You just happen to sit under the customer success org.

Kelly McGuire:
Yeah. It’s spot on. Right? And and, like, you know, when you said what’s your mission, I mean, my mission is to satisfy and delight our customers. Right? Like, that’s the mission at the core. Yeah. Help them achieve quantifiable results so that it’s easy to tell that value story and and make sure that you know that it’s not just the software that’s the that’s the value in the partnership. It’s the people. It’s the collaboration.

Kelly McGuire:
It’s the extended community that we’re giving you, within the EverStage space. But it truly is, you know, and like sales stays in their lane for certain things. We stay in their lane marketing, you know, product, etcetera, etcetera. But at the end of the day, the collective effort is to to create a very exceptional differentiated customer experience and every single person EverStage is part of that.

Jon Johnson:
I love

Josh Schachter:
that. How does that percolate up to the executive level? You know, they promoted your role to VP rather than keeping it at a head of customer success for, you know, what, a hundred person growing company at the time they hired you, thereabouts. They, you know, it sounds like they’ve they’ve made that a talking point in the town halls and and they were like, how how do they get it? Not just like, oh, they get it. Like, how do they tactically and strategically inherit the voice of the customer?

Kelly McGuire:
Yeah. Well, I think a lot of it is just visibility. Right? So, we’ve got a core lead a core leadership team that meets regularly. We are consistently focused on what those strategic OKR or goals are across the org. We then figure out how to communicate that to our teams and how every single person is part of that. For instance, you know, today, I was having a conversation with our support leaders yesterday not yesterday, Friday. I was having a conversation with our product leaders, and and all of it ties back into how we’re working together to, you know, grow our business, but ultimately grow our customer’s business too. And so I think a lot of it is just radical transparency.

Kelly McGuire:
We did our kickoff two weeks ago in, India, and, you know, our c my CEO and our cofounder, who’s our chief product officer, they sat down with our whole org. And, you know, we talked about not just our numbers from last year and what our numbers are this year, but what our product goals from last year were where we ended up, vice versa, where we’re headed this year. I did the same thing for CS. Marketing did it too. There was no, like, little silos where those conversations were happening in a vacuum. We wanted everybody to understand kinda table stakes for where the whole industry is. And that started with the leadership team aligning at the top and making sure that when we’re implementing change, when we’re trying to create transparency, if the leaders aren’t walking the walk, then why would anybody else do it down, you know, down on the teams that are actually doing that hard work of, like, working with the customers, building the product, enhancing the product, etcetera. So I think it’s just that ethos.

Kelly McGuire:
And and I have to say, that starts with our cofounders and with Siva Brajimani, who is our CEO. You know, I think the one of the other differentiators is, Steve was the head of rev ops in another organization and saw a gap in the market for the need at a VeprStage. And he he he took it upon himself to kinda sit outside of his comfort zone and go go start this thing and build this. And he did it because he has so much situational fluency and context for what people in rev ops roles need on that side of the business. And he’s still just as involved, if not more involved today. And that’s not gonna change because that’s just like the ethos of whoever stages.

Josh Schachter:
So he understands the problem

Kelly McGuire:
Correct. Correct. And, you know and again, I’m sure you both understand this because you’ve worked in lots of different orgs. Like, you know, you’ve got lots of leaders that sit up at an ivory tower and just bark orders.

Jon Johnson:
Yeah. It’s just

Kelly McGuire:
not what happens here. Right? No matter if it’s him, if it’s me, if it’s our head of product, if it’s our head of marketing, whatever it may be. And, you know, change starts at the top. And it’s the easiest way to grow and evolve and enhance and optimize what you’re doing internally so that your customers get a better result. And without that philosophy, I wouldn’t be here because that’s what I need in my leaders to challenge me and to to always make sure that we’re all meeting at the same table. And that’s exactly what we do at every stage.

Josh Schachter:
Love it. Gosh. John, you have a you have a last question? No.

Jon Johnson:
This is great.

Josh Schachter:
He that that that Sign

Jon Johnson:
me up.

Josh Schachter:
That glow that glow is wearing is wearing onto John. I think

Jon Johnson:
Once we’re done recording, I have a couple of questions for you.

Josh Schachter:
Yeah. So so what so what, a year from now or, you know, let’s say yeah. A year from now, what’s, what is your vision? What does success look like for your team, your org, and the company?

Kelly McGuire:
I think it’s it’s continuing to double click on, like, our our commitment to customizable solutions that meet specific needs of each enterprise customer, and really just continuing to elevate how we how we care about their outcomes and ensure they’re able to get the value out of EverStage, really. So I I think it’s it’s doing an even better job of capturing that story, and making sure that other people know that story, because we have that differentiated in house implementation team. We have a white glove customer, support and service model. We have that domain expertise. Right? The fact that we have so many people, and it’s not just our our cofounders. It’s people within every aspect of our organization that have rich background in sales compensation. Customers can get consultation on on plan designs to promote the right behaviors to ensuring plan efficiency to meeting your your revenue goals. And I I think for us, we’re just doing that at bigger scale.

Kelly McGuire:
Right? We’re doing that now. But, again, being four, almost five years old, we’re we’re still, you know, growing in the space. I just wanna do this and replicate it more for as many organizations worldwide because when customers work with us, the the value they see is so I don’t wanna say catastrophic because that seems bad, but I think of it as a good word. Like, it it’s so disruptive that, I just want to repeat and clone and repeat and clone because it’s it’s so impactful to to businesses, to to both sides of that space, that rev up space, and then, obviously, that top line revenue growth, which is what every leader wants to see.

Josh Schachter:
Will you come back next year and tell us how it all went?

Kelly McGuire:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Happy to.

Jon Johnson:
When you’re ringing the bell on on, Wall Street.

Josh Schachter:
Yeah, they’re just going to go straight from Series B to IPO.

Jon Johnson:
Hey, this is a weird market. You just don’t know.

Josh Schachter:
That’s true. That is true. Yeah. Okay. Well, Kelly, this was great. Thank you for bringing the fun, the energy, the radical candor and transparency. And, yeah, wish you all the best in the rest of the year.

Kelly McGuire:
Thanks, guys. Great chat.

Jon Johnson:
Thank you, Kelly.

Josh Schachter:
Yeah. Thanks, guys. Bye.