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Josh Schachter:

Everybody, and welcome to this week’s CS and BS. I’m Josh Schachter, founder and CEO of UpdateAI. I have with me here the one and only

Jon Johnson:

the one and only John Johnson. I’ve been scaling enterprise strategy value and retention, for the last 12 years. Currently, I’m, working at user testing where we’re the way organizations build products and services through feedback directly from the people who use them. That’s directly from my marketing girl. So Yeah. Good job. Thanks.

Josh Schachter:

Nice nice nice. Christy would be proud. This is this is like an odd week. Right, John? This is this is you and I. We’re kind of in our our man cave here.

Jon Johnson:

Man caves. Yeah.

Josh Schachter:

Yeah. Yeah. We’ve got Mickey out still, and now Christy, was out today as well. So Oh. Yeah. So to the chagrin of all of our 10 listeners that like, you’ve got John and Josh, the the, you know, the j squared.

Jon Johnson:

J squared.

Josh Schachter:

J squared. And, you know, John, we talked about this. We did this last week with Erica. We wanna start to do a little bit more of a structured profile and showcase on the backgrounds of CS leaders and CS practitioners that are out there. I think the whole kind of ethos of this podcast now is not only to talk CS and BS, but to do it in a way where it’s really gonna help folks as they wanna develop and grow their careers we know there’s so many people that are getting into CS and so many people that wanna grow their careers in CS. So what better way than just to listen to the stories of of those folks that are already, you know, excelling and growing and learning themselves. Mhmm. So you have you’re you’re just an interesting guy.

Josh Schachter:

We know that. We we we know anybody who’s ever, you know, struck any conversation with you or or seeing you your post online or is hip to your new haircut knows that you’re just a really interesting personality. And I am really excited because we decided before Christy and Nikki, you know, bailed on us, and maybe that’s this is, kind of part of the reason behind that. But we decided that we were going to profile hour, my very own cohost for today, mister John Johnson.

Jon Johnson:

Me.

Josh Schachter:

You. I’m really excited, John. I’ve got your resume in front of me. I’ve got my cheat sheet here, my cliff notes. You have, by my count, been a CSM at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 different establishments.

Jon Johnson:

Well, and there’s technically 2 that I don’t talk about.

Josh Schachter:

So, okay. Let’s start there. Let’s start there. Okay. So, tell me about those. No.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. We’ll get there. We’ll get

Josh Schachter:

there. We’ll get there. But but but in in this conversation, John Yeah. I you when I first met you, I think this literally was the 1st time I met you. It was, like, at a happy hour. I think I might have been in a happy hour at my apartment.

Jon Johnson:

At your house. Yeah.

Josh Schachter:

At my house. Yes. And, and there was, like, a sidebar conversation, and you were kinda holding court a little bit, and you were telling about your own personal background and upbringing.

Jon Johnson:

Mhmm.

Josh Schachter:

And, I remember just being so fascinated and also really inspired by that too. Like, a Really cool. Wow. No. I mean, because it’s very unique to say the least. Right? And I don’t know if it has impacted your journey through CS. I’m hoping that it has because then it weeks into art. Yeah.

Josh Schachter:

Because then we could tie it. It’s not just a random. Let’s just hear about John’s, you know, actually.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. Childhood.

Josh Schachter:

Yeah. Yeah. Tell us about your crazy childhood, John. Like, tell us, like, where are you from? Where are you from? Let’s start with that.

Jon Johnson:

I was born, and raised in Monroe, Washington. And we kinda moved around. There’s 3 cities that were pretty close. Monroe, Snohomish, and Maltby. They’re all, like, backwoods, like, one stoplight, went to the little bodega for, you know, popcorn and milk and eggs and whatever we needed. Yeah. So, you know, I spent most of my life until I think I was about 27 or 28 in Washington state.

Josh Schachter:

Okay. In Washington state. And Yeah.

Jon Johnson:

Well, there’s and there’s some we’ll sprinkle in a little bit. But, also, getting into, like, the childhood thing. My parents, I was raised very religious. I was 1st generational Christian, I guess, is the term. My dad was, like, in motorcycle gangs, and, my mom was married to, like, the rival head of another motorcycle gang. And both of my parents had been married 2 or 3 times before. There’s a couple step, you know, stepbrother in there and and so was chaos.

Josh Schachter:

2 or 3?

Jon Johnson:

They’re each the they’re 3rd. So, when they got married, they were both on their 3rd marriages.

Josh Schachter:

Okay. Okay.

Jon Johnson:

And my favorite story, of this is that my my father’s 1st and third wives were named Sharon. Sharon. And Sharon. So my mom’s name was Sharon. My eldest brother, half brother, who’s probably 20 years older than me. His mom’s name is Sharon. And my dad always made jokes. He’s like, you know what? I never recommend a 2nd marriage or a 3rd marriage, but if you do, just make sure you don’t get their names wrong.

Jon Johnson:

And he always played it off as like a planned thing, but, you know, we know how it goes.

Josh Schachter:

Yeah. Yeah. Because you’ve

Jon Johnson:

been married a dozen times. Right?

Josh Schachter:

What’s that? Have I? Right. Yeah, yeah, we all anybody who knows me knows that’s very far from the truth. Very far from the truth. Yes. So, okay, so let’s pretend for a second that we believe, and I’m not saying I don’t or I do, but let’s say that we believe in epigenetics. And the history and the legacy of your family background has impact who you are today, even at the the the the molecular level. So I’m really fascinated, with that being said, in hearing about your dad who was in a motorcycle gang and your mom who married to the head of the rival gang. Is did I get that right?

Jon Johnson:

A rival gang. There’s a bunch of these weren’t, like, the big like, we’re not talking, like, sons of anarchy here. Like, these weren’t, like, Hells Angels, but, they were like, you know, so, like, if you’re if you take, like, I don’t know. What’s the knockoff version of of anything. Take take your pick of analogies. I’m I’m struggling. I haven’t had enough coffee today, but, my dad grew up playing music. He was in a lot of bands growing up, and he found a lot of success in, like, fifties and sixties rock and roll.

Jon Johnson:

So when in the fifties and he’s got a ton of stories of, you know, playing Vegas and playing these big shows and and knows a lot of great great musicians. I think that is something that he instilled in me. But as the years went on. I don’t know if you’ve spent much time kind of with, like, the motorcycle crowd, like, kind of the sixties seventies ride. I’ve never

Josh Schachter:

been involved in a motorcycle gag. No.

Jon Johnson:

Like, When I say, like, I was like, I grew up in a crowd of leather heads and, you know, everything that you can think of when it comes to motorcycle gangs. Like, that was growing up, for me.

Josh Schachter:

Like the like the like the leather chaps and everything.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. And everybody had their, you know, girl on the back. And, I mean, so much like, I know we’re kinda meandering a little but, you know, he started playing these big festivals and these big events where motorcycle gang. Like, actual gangs would go. Like, they would go and hang out. And my dad’s band kinda got to be known, and they got hired by one of these gangs. I used to know it off the top of my head. I know my mom was involved with the Banditos.

Jon Johnson:

I don’t I got a I I have my dad’s cuts in the closet, so I can actually go figure out what what which ones he was in. But, anytime there’s a party, anytime there’s, like, an event, his band would play. And he was a part of this kinda big group. And he wasn’t that big of, like, a motorcycle guy, but he was befriended by the groups. And so he got, you know, brought in. Hit a, I think, dicky little Honda or something like that. But, the stories that he tells me of of just, like, kinda seeing what you see on Sons of Anarchy and in these stories of, like, people making violent choices. And he has some stories about seeing people getting killed and gonna be in in that world, that kinda got him into the next phase, which both of my parents, lived through the sixties seventies.

Jon Johnson:

Obviously, they did a lot of drugs, made a lot of decisions that I think maybe they wouldn’t like me to make, these days. And, my dad had this pretty pivotal moment, coming out of a club. There’s a rival gang member, who was also coming out of the club and and the the gang the group of guys jumped him, and they and, you know, I won’t get too graphic, but they Held on to him out of the side of a moving vehicle and slammed him into a road pylon. I mean, just like

Josh Schachter:

Your dad. Mulan. They held your dad outside the room.

Jon Johnson:

My dad was my dad saw this. So he came out of the club, and he saw, the group that he was a part of, like, murder a guy, in in the back of a of a, you know, club parking lot. And on top of all the other stories that he had. Like, he said this is like he always said that this was, like, the turning point for him. Yeah. I think my mom was pregnant with my sister at the time. They were living in a motel on, highway 99 outside of Seattle, just kinda transient life. And they they they legitimately Had kind of that, like, wake up call.

Jon Johnson:

Like, we need to change. We need to change. And, one of the guys that my dad was a part of with this club left the club and started a motorcycle church. And, like, I mean, it’s, like, a 200 of the hardest guys, face tattoos, leathers, everything, going to church on Sunday. And that was kind of way that I was raised. That was the church I was raised in was my dad was this pastor he’s preaching. He was talking about, you know, his his life from before to where he is now. And, Dean and Boo, I forget their last names, but the main pastor was Dean and his wife was boo.

Jon Johnson:

And, they lived in Snohomish, Washington, and we would always go over to their house. And, I mean, it was just it was just our people. Like, it was a really beautiful like, I never felt unsafe. Like, I never felt anything negative. Like, I just felt these people that came out of a really hard life that have Yeah. I would say you wanna talk about, like, how it shaped me. I was shaped by people who knew how to tell a story,

Josh Schachter:

knew

Jon Johnson:

how to tell their story and connect it to growth. And I think, like, I don’t know that I could really put that find of a pin on it when I was 10, but as I look back, like, I look back at meeting people and then having people share their testimony, but not just like, oh, I was lost, but now I’m found, like, but full on, like, like, like, life isn’t, like a constant. Like, it’s just ups and downs and constant growth and constant valleys and all these things. And being able to kinda, like, pin choices and moments into growth was something that I think really affected me and has it really been instilled in me in the way that I communicate, in the way that I share. But that led us into probably the most, I think, chaotic experience in my life is, you know, my mom and dad really felt called in this ministry. They wanted to be missionaries, and they wanted to figure out how to go proselytize the world and make everybody a Christian. Right? They saw this change in their life, and they wanted to kinda share that. And I’m not gonna preach on this podcast.

Jon Johnson:

I swear. I’ll send you another podcast where I do. But, you know, my dad was a musician, and he was really connected into, like, the sixties seventies music world. And there’s a guy back then, a Christian singer by the name of Keith Green. And and he’s the big seventies gospel singer, big Afro, plays the piano. Some of my favorite, you know, of that type of music when I do listen to it. Like, I still love some of those records. Basically, like, kinda like the Bob Dylan of Jesus music, even though Bob Dylan himself did HIMS.

Jon Johnson:

But they he started this this, like, weird little thing in East Texas where people would come and learn how to be a missionary. They would learn how to, like, languages. They would learn about the bible. They learn about all these things. Right? And it it wasn’t what you picture of like a retreat. It was very much like they just bought land, and, people donated trailers. Like, we lived in a hand me down trailer that had no heat and no electricity, and, like, in the back on 600 acres or whatever. There’s like a it’s tragic because Keith died in a plane accident, on the property.

Jon Johnson:

His plane crashed, And he died with everybody else on the flight. Wow. And we stayed. And, you know, I I was kind of, you know, raised with his kids, and it’s called Last Days Ministries. Was the name of it. You can Google it. There’s some great pictures. But I just remember

Josh Schachter:

Was this like a David Koresh type of thing when we talk about it?

Jon Johnson:

Not so much death, but, but I I do think, you know, in hindsight, I’ve spent a lot of time kinda, like, digging into my psyche of, like, what this experience was. We ate food that was donated. It there was no money. There was no, like, commerce or economy. It was all gifts, and it was never, like, the top top of the line stuff. Yeah. So we spent quite a bit of time out there. And, you know, they definitely were fire and brimstone.

Jon Johnson:

The world is ending. We need to go save people. Otherwise, everybody’s gonna go to hell. And there was, like, an immediacy and an urgency to this. And I just remember being in a room full of kids. Not really sure where the food’s coming from. Not really sure if it’s gonna be warm that night because we didn’t have heat, and just kinda like not really sure what my life was, if that makes sense.

Josh Schachter:

This will this will be, like, this is a naive question, but, like, were you aware of your situation?

Jon Johnson:

Or I mean, I was aware that I Could never buy shoes or hand me down you know what I mean? Like, I was aware of, like, the poverty that we’re in, and it extended far beyond this, like, when when we got back To Washington. And did

Josh Schachter:

it affect you?

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. Absolutely. Like, I think there’s a lot of, I don’t know if I think there’s a lot of trauma that I had to unpack old as I got older. But that led us into like like, my parents were not very good missionaries, and they got kicked out. I mean, they get it’s like, you can’t. You’re not raising any money because my parents actually held the belief that I believe in where it’s like, look. We’re here to work. Like, I should be able to go get a job and pay for the things that I want.

Jon Johnson:

Even if I wanna go to Mexico about Jesus. I can go get a job and do that. I don’t need to go beg other people to pay me for this. Right? So this is a belief that is still very much instilled in me that I’m gonna solve my problems. Right? I’m not gonna go ask for help. Anyways, so we went to another one in Indiana called Daystar Ministries for a few months because my parents really believed that this was their calling. Got same thing. My parents just weren’t it.

Jon Johnson:

They weren’t raising money. They didn’t really fit the mold of whatever it is. So we went we went back home to Washington, and it was about a year or 2 where, you know, my dad didn’t have a job. My mom didn’t work. We were homeless. We slept on couches. We slept on floors and garages of, you know, people that we knew within the church. We finally, my dad, there’s a pastor that he had worked with who had kind of another mobile home on the back of his, you know, big, huge lot, that he rented to my dad for, like, $200 a month.

Josh Schachter:

And

Jon Johnson:

we lived in that for almost 17 years.

Josh Schachter:

Really?

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. Until I graduated from high school. I saw I guess it was 13 years, at this point, but until I graduated from high school. But, like, it was I had to hold my floor at a piece of plywood that went underneath my bed because it went straight down to the ground. We had no heating. We had a a wood stove. You know, windows were broke. Like, I mean, it was like It was like depressed.

Jon Johnson:

Wow. Poverty. Right? So and we just never had anything. I will say, like, you know, we’ll get into the career part after this, but, while I definitely knew that I we were broke and, You know, we were around people who were very wealthy just because we went to a private church. You know, we went to a big church that was like a megachurch, and we kinda felt like that was it. But everybody was wealthy, and we were not, so I definitely knew. And going through high school, not being able to go on, you know, trips or whatever, having to scrounge around for $20 for lunch. Like, that was kind of the normal thing.

Jon Johnson:

Right? But but I also, like, like, firmly believe that, like, my parents worked very, very hard, to communicate love to us, and there wasn’t, like, There wasn’t trauma attached to that. It was just Mhmm.

Josh Schachter:

My

Jon Johnson:

dad really struggled with work. He couldn’t really figure out what he wanted to do with life. And it’s it’s one of those things that, like, I have been very, very focused on not repeating that for my sake and for my kid’s sake. Like, I want to have a purpose. And even if I don’t know what I wanna do with my life, like, I don’t sit on my hands and just let life happen in a way that my father did. Right. And I’m not really sure where that kinda came from in his, you know, psyche, but for me, it was very much like day 1. Look.

Jon Johnson:

I don’t have a job. I’m gonna go work at McDonald’s. I’m gonna go work at Starbucks. I’m gonna go do whatever I need to do in order to pay the bills that I need to so that my kids don’t feel this. Right?

Josh Schachter:

Right.

Jon Johnson:

So there’s this, like, almost urgency in me, and a lot of a lot of, like, my decisions in my career and why I’m doing what I’m doing, why I left music because I was a musician for a while, are based on those experiences of saying, like, I wanna make sure that, like, I’m providing for the people that rely on me so that 20 years from now, they’re not sitting on a podcast talking about having to fight for a, you know, a 2 day old Slice of pizza or something like that.

Josh Schachter:

That’s amazing. But but, yeah, well, Okay, so you did feel loved, though. It was a it was a nuclear family despite your your your poverty and and and kind of your situation. Right. And and you could have made poor poor choices. Zari, I would imagine, like, there’s plenty of it. I’m sure you’re Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Schachter:

I’m not giving you too much credit. Right? But, like, when you’re when you’re fighting over 2 day old pizza, like, how can you focus on your algebra test coming up the next day? Right? Or, like and yet you did graduate high school. Right? You did graduate college, right?

Jon Johnson:

Fairly, yeah, I did.

Josh Schachter:

You got it. You got the paper. Yeah. You are very gainfully employed and continue to grow and rise in career. You have a very nuclear family right now of your own. It’s I don’t know, man. It’s kinda awe inspiring, to be honest with you. It’s it’s it’s it really is inspiring.

Josh Schachter:

Yeah.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. And I’m you know, I was the 1st in my nuclear family to go to college and graduate. So my sister, we always joke, that she went she went to like a private bible college in Kirkland, Washington called Northwest Bible College. And she got her MRS degree, which was the joke, because she went for, like, a semester and got married, married a pastor’s son, and popped out 5 kids, and then left, and that was it. You know? She quit, school because she just stayed at home with the kids. That’s what she wanted to do. I actually went to art school. I well, I went, I had a little bit of a a a dalliance in the big I went to University of Washington for like a semester.

Jon Johnson:

I mean, like I went into English 101 and there was like 600 people in this in 1 class. And just for context, I graduated I don’t know the exact number. It was, like, 20 to 30 kids in my graduating class, and I’ve been going to school with them since pretty much kindergarten. Yeah. So, like, my entire school, my all the way all k through 12 was, like, 200 people.

Josh Schachter:

But but, John, how do you even go from, like, from homelessness Yeah. And the and what you described. And and I don’t wanna, like

Jon Johnson:

No. It’s fine.

Josh Schachter:

Overstate it or or patronize it or whatever. Right? But, like Yeah. How do you go from that to even getting into the University of Washington.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. So What drove you? Luckily. And there are a lot of luckily’s in my story. You know, my we were connect we went to this small school, before I went to Cedar Park, which is a high school that I graduated from I went to a school in Monroe called Monroe Christian. And we are lucky enough to be surrounded by some incredible families, and and and not just by wealth. I mean, like, like, like templates, if you will, of what a life could be. Right? So, obviously, school private schools are expensive. So instead of, you know, buying houses and all these things, like, we lived in this dump and we so that we could go to these schools.

Jon Johnson:

And a lot of what I A lot of the successes that I’ve made are from the education that I got because

Josh Schachter:

it

Jon Johnson:

is second to I mean, I make jokes about how small the school was, and I make jokes about just going to school in a church and, like, having to wear a tie on Fridays and praying and all this kind of stuff. But, like, you know, I read Dickens in 6th 6th grade. And I read like, I I fell in love with literature, and I fell in love with science. And I was surrounded in in very, very small classrooms with teachers that drove individual successes and told individual stories through their students. And it is it is still the greatest gift that my parents ever gave me, and they worked their asses off. I mean, we had to go to the church that the school is at because we got a 20% discount if we were members.

Josh Schachter:

Right.

Jon Johnson:

And my mom was the attendance lady at the school because we got a 50% discount for employees. And, like, Anne, Anne, Anne, Anne, Anne. We just got a stacked coupons when it came to a private education.

Josh Schachter:

Right.

Jon Johnson:

So we had to go like, that was it. Right? And there’s there’s some I I rebelled quite a bit. I wanted to get kicked out. I wanted to go to public school because they had dances and girls that wore skirts and, you know, all the things that, you know, you think about high school. But, you know, leading up into that when I graduated high school and when I went into those tests, like, I was 3 years ahead of everybody coming in as a freshman. Like, the math that I was doing was, you know, like a Yeah. Like a junior in like, it’s just it it was so foreign to me, that this wasn’t kind of the normalcy of what education was. Right? And and and I still like, I’m so, so grateful, for the education that I was given and the work that my parents did to give me that.

Josh Schachter:

So so you didn’t have money, but you had values.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. Big time. And I did not complete that English one zero one course at the University of Washington. I I I had a I think probably my first panic attack. We won’t go into, like, the anxiety, and there’s there’s a good amount of trauma that kinda came out of those life experiences that

Josh Schachter:

Mhmm.

Jon Johnson:

Are are pretty guarded. I’m I’m happy to talk about it, because it is growth and a part of my story, but I think it kinda delves us off topic a little bit. Yeah. So it’s, I I I like I I called mom. I was like, this is this isn’t it. I can’t do it. I’m crying. Like, I was sobbing.

Jon Johnson:

Like, the 2nd day in this class, I was like, I just can’t do this. Like, there’s 600 never seen 600 people in my life. Like, what on earth are you doing to me? Right? So, I kinda just tried to do the church thing for a little bit, and I joined another kinda, like, music thing through church and played a bunch of youth groups and colleges across the country. And it’s kinda my 1st experience, like, learning the guitar and playing in front of people. And, again, like, it was just kinda like a breath. For me, it was like a breath. I just kinda like

Josh Schachter:

It’s like,

Jon Johnson:

what do I wanna do? Right? And the music thing really kinda stuck. And I came my dad bought me guitars, and I traveled, and I did all these things. Right? And and when I came home, mom said, you know, you really need to go to college. Like, that’s the thing that needs to happen. Right. And the deal was if I graduated, they would pay for it somehow. So mom found this program at the Artist Institute of Seattle, and it was a music production and business program. It was like a applied bachelor’s.

Jon Johnson:

It wasn’t even like a real bachelor’s, like the nontransferable type. Right?

Josh Schachter:

Oh, yeah.

Jon Johnson:

But it’s a piece of paper and it works. And I learned sat in a studio in Seattle for a couple years and just worked with some incredible musicians and figured out business and figured out performance and figured out recording and production and And spent some incredible years doing some of the most phenomenal things with music that I’m so proud of and that have shaped me in ways that, you know, our, you know, I’m still identifying. And then, you know go ahead. You have a question?

Josh Schachter:

No. And that’s that’s a whole separate episode is your musical because you are a professional musician. You have been. I I was I I went to Austin City Limits Yeah. A couple weeks ago, and you’re looking at the lineup with me. And you’re like, oh, yeah. You know, I I, I I played with this person. Like, I know that guy.

Josh Schachter:

And then you send us a text message to to our podcast crew this weekend with a photo of you playing with One Direction.

Jon Johnson:

One Republic.

Josh Schachter:

Oh, One Republic. One Republic.

Jon Johnson:

Oh, okay. Very, very different.

Josh Schachter:

Okay. Very different. Okay. I don’t I don’t know music so well. No. It’s fine. But, but you did make it, which is really cool. Let’s skip over that.

Josh Schachter:

Let’s skip over talking about all the groupies, and let’s go straight into, like, what the what came next. I don’t know if that was that CS? Did CS come directly from that?

Jon Johnson:

No. So my I had a kid, you know, and I think the left the first left turn of my life was in college. Know, I was older, so I was, like, in I graduated from college when I was, like, 26 or 7. That just took a lot of years in between, and and I’m a firm believer in taking your own path to education and and that kind of stuff. But, you know, the the girl, that I was with at the time, we wound up getting pregnant, And we went through a whole bunch of discussions around, you know, what we’re gonna do. She was 19. I was, you know, 24, 25, or something at this this time, and We just like you know, we were gonna be parents. Right? And so I went from being this guy on the road and playing shows and sleeping on floors and Not worrying if I had $20 because it was just me to, oh my god, like, how am I gonna do this? How am I gonna be in studios until 2 o’clock in the morning and come home to my kid.

Jon Johnson:

And and and, you know, I like we talked a little about it earlier is that while there wasn’t a whole lot of money, there was There was morals and there was love and there was, like, a a a a unit, and I I always wanted that. I was, you know, at whatever point. And as soon as it was kinda brought to me, obviously, that’s the decision that we made. It’s like, oh my god. I gotta figure this out. Right? And a buddy of mine, who’s also a musician and producer, worked at Microsoft. I got a job in the audio visual department at Microsoft. So they’ve worked on sound and the noises and whatnot within Microsoft.

Jon Johnson:

And, after Connor, my eldest, was born. He turns 18 in 2 weeks, which is so weird. Awesome.

Josh Schachter:

After birthday Connor.

Jon Johnson:

I know. He’s just my best friend, ever, and I love him. And a lot of where I’m at today is because of of him popping out of his mom and saying feed me and, figuring out, like, I need health insurance. I didn’t need a regular paycheck. And I got this interview at Microsoft, and and I realized, And this is what kinda leads me into where I’m at today is that, you know, the things that I did in the studio, the things that I did on the road, touring, the things that I did with pretty much everything up into that point was problem solving, but, like, like, with a point. I like to say, like, somebody would come to me and be like, oh, I want this song to sound like x, and I would just kinda like do the math of we need this synthesizer, and we need this baseline, and we need this tempo, and we need this melody and these words. Right? And just kind of like being very creative with very little input. And that’s what this job at Microsoft was is that people within Microsoft would come to me and the team that I was at and said, hey, man.

Jon Johnson:

I got this problem where this projector doesn’t work or we need these microphones, and I would have to, like, then solve it with my toolkit. Right? And I really loved building relationships. And I found one of the I I’ve said this before. One of the key components that I think led me into customer success was this job at Microsoft of, somebody coming to me for the 1st time really enjoying the experience, getting their problem solved, and then 3 months later being like, oh, you know what? I gotta call John. I’m gonna call John. I’m not gonna go to this tool. I’m gonna go to John, and I’m gonna tell these other people to go to John. And this kind of, like, referral, this kind of champion, this kind of look.

Jon Johnson:

I’m here to solve your problems. That’s the only reason that I’m here. To help. And, yeah, and we’re gonna get out of from point a to point b, and we’re gonna look at the whole alphabet. Right? And, and it was it was a great job. I was there for just under 3 years. With it was my 1st time I got laid off too in 2009 when Microsoft did their big layoffs. So that was also a learning curve.

Jon Johnson:

But I just kinda like figured out, man, I really like Building relationships. Actually really like software. I really like, meeting people that are in software and and creative, so programmers, engineers, these kind of folks. I took a couple jobs. I had, like, a marketing job. I did some you know, I worked as a BDR, if you kinda read up my my career path. Mostly like startups, early stage startups. I did some, my first, like, customer success job was this nonprofit in Seattle.

Jon Johnson:

And it was, like, right before I moved to Denver. I really think, like, customer success really for me, like, started. I moved from Seattle, moved to Denver, and I moved to California. And it really started in California. So I did a lot of early stage startups just like I wanna work in software. I wanna work with entrepreneurs. I wanna figure out what those problems are. Right? And so I moved to Ventura, California in 2000 and gosh.

Jon Johnson:

10, maybe? 2010? 9? 10? Math is hard. Numbers are weird. Who know who cares? It’s not like there’s a calendar in front of me that tells me exactly when. But Uber had just launched, and, I didn’t have a job. We’re living with the in laws at the time. My next my middle child was probably 2, Noah. He was 2 at the time. And, I met the founder of this company called Invoca in Santa Barbara, California.

Jon Johnson:

And I took him to the airport. We had a really good conversation and he, like, saved my number and I same kinda thing as Microsoft. Like, he was like, hey. I need a ride. Are you out? I was like, yeah. No problem. We just kinda had a couple of those conversations. And, you know, he introduced me to hiring managers.

Jon Johnson:

He introduced to the person in charge of customer success. And it’s funny. I remember this the first time I got my 1st customer success manager job at Invoca. I was there. I loved I loved this company. I still love this company. And I remember coming in. I was the first one of the first CSMs.

Jon Johnson:

Everybody else was like, They hadn’t moved over to customer success. It was still customer support, and it was still these things. Right? So I remember on day 1, Lorelei, introduced me to the team. It’s like, this is John. He’s a customer success manager, and there’s, like, 3 people that I sat next to that saw the title manager and thought I was their boss. Great. They’re like, oh, you’re our and they were, like, talking to me like I’m their new manager or whatever. And I remember that 1st week, I was so confused because I’m like, I don’t think that I’m their boss.

Jon Johnson:

And I remember meeting with Lorelei, my boss, and being like, I need some clarity. So Jen over here thinks so and so, and she’s like, oh, no. No. No. We’re changing titles, and it was fine. But there was, like, a brief moment. I was, like, did I just, like, fake my way into leadership somehow?

Josh Schachter:

Which is Well, that’s all getting hundreds of kids. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Just fake your way. Yeah.

Jon Johnson:

You’re just there at the right time. So Yeah. And and that was, I mean, I was So

Josh Schachter:

so you’ve you’ve got you went from Invoca to ShipHawk to Giddyup to Xinyere to Splash, and now you’re at user testing. So Correct. You’ve gone through quite the run there. And for someone who’s had the background that you had where it was a little bit nomadic Yeah. Literally and figuratively, what has stuck about CS for you.

Jon Johnson:

I think I think that that one of competencies is understanding that we’re talking about humanity. Like, truthfully, like, we’re talking people don’t maybe don’t say this directly, but, like, when you in these roles. When you’re solving someone’s problem, there’s a person on the other end of that Zoom. Back then, it was in person or whatever, you know, before the digital, whatever. But that You have to think about the other person. You have to think about put yourself into their shoes. There’s an empathy driver. There’s all of these things.

Jon Johnson:

Yes. You need skills, but the soft skills are the things that I had in spades. And I think that’s one of the things that that has given me stability in this is that no matter how stressed I am or how pissed off I am because Leadership doesn’t listen. Like, there is this thing in my brain that still goes and says, hey, this SVP that I work with is an idiot or whatever. But they’re a person, and they’re just trying to do their job. And maybe they have something that they’re missing. So instead of me just bitching and being annoyed and just rage quitting. It’s like, yes, we’re gonna go through those emotions, and we’re gonna come to a place where everybody’s just trying to do their jobs.

Jon Johnson:

Right? And I think in this position. Why I’ve never really gone into sales is because if you don’t hit your quota 3 quarters, it’ll really fire you. If you don’t you know, like, there’s just like Right. There’s very there’s much more tactical steps. Steps. Yeah. You can make way more money, but I’ve just never wanted to be transactional. Right.

Jon Johnson:

And I would say, like, the other thing that you will notice, I I have taken the next step in my career at another job. It has been rare for me to work for a company for a couple years, get a promotion at that company, and expand my career. I’ve always had to find People ask me why, like, I I left these places. There’s 2 very, very serious, like, layoffs, and that was at, Shiphock and at Xenir, that I had just you know, I needed a job. But by and large, like, Invoca, I worked as a direct CSM without a promotion for two and a half years. And I really struggled with, am I not good enough? Like, why is everybody else getting promotions and not me? And my reviews are excellent, but I’m just not getting there. Right? And And I think that’s something that people maybe don’t talk about in these kind of paths is, look. We’re gonna talk about all the happy things, but, you know, my life and my career has really been baked on, I’m gonna go find what I want.

Jon Johnson:

I’m gonna go find what I need. I’m not gonna wait for somebody to give it to me. With respect. Like, I’m not just hopping around every 6 months. But if I feel like and I know that I can do this other job, I’m gonna go find it. You know what I mean? And I’m gonna go I’m gonna put in the work. I’m gonna put in the effort. And then if nobody’s gonna give it to me, which that’s half of the time, there’s just as many people that listen to this that Have gotten looked over for the promotion for whatever reason.

Jon Johnson:

Yep. And that’s kinda been that’s kinda been my career is that, like, I I really put effort in and I spend a lot of time. And then, like, if 3 or 4 quarters go by and they’re like, we’ll think about it next quarter. We’ll think about it next quarter. It’s like, okay. Well, I’m thinking about it this quarter. So, I’m gonna go find it. Right? And that’s kinda led me right now.

Jon Johnson:

My current title is principal customer success manager key accounts on the global’s team, which is a mouthful. But it’s like the highest there is until you get into management. Right? And it’s like, I’m just kinda like kicking this can down the road into what does management look and those are the conversations that I’m having right now with myself.

Josh Schachter:

Yeah. But let’s not let’s let’s also not, downplay your experience and and what you do. Right? You you’re in management. You you you you are a leader to to those in your team, for sure. I know that from from knowing you personally. And and, you know, that resonates with me, your story very much in that sense. Because until my last role, I had never been, and I’m 39, right? I had never been promoted in my career.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah.

Josh Schachter:

And I had leveled up nicely through going from, you know, role to role, because I didn’t want to stay stagnant in places that weren’t going to be the right fit. And again, I wasn’t I also wasn’t leaving after 6 months. I was staying there for a year and a half, 2 years, 3 years. But at a certain point, if you’re not getting fulfilled, then it does behoove you to to keep your ears to the ground.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, we’re living in a in a world right now that is just full of layoffs and riffs and all these things. And and I think We talked I think we talked about this a couple podcasts ago where it’s like we just need to put an asterisk on everything after 2019. Right. Because it’s just every it’s like, look. I tried my best and, You know, I was there’s a friend of mine that just got laid off after 3 weeks after getting hot. Right? I mean, it’s just there’s so much chaos.

Jon Johnson:

But yeah. I mean, I think I have been let’s see. Where do I wanna go with that? I think that I really like this idea. I’m a use a term that’s, like, drenched in church, and I and I I have separated this term from the religion aspect of it, but servant leadership. Mhmm. This is something that that is is paramount to me that I do not believe that you need to have a director or a VP or an SVP title to be a leader. And I think experience comes from figuring out how to move, you know, from 0 to 1. And and it’s just what’s the problem that you’re applying this to.

Jon Johnson:

Right? And so I’ve had some team lead roles. I’ve worked in a lot of coaching opportunities. I I currently now kinda set big strategy that would kind of describe yourself as a manager or a senior manager solving 1,000,000 upon 1,000,000 upon 1,000,000 of dollars and then working cross with leadership and teams within user testing, and I love it. And there’s a part of me that doesn’t need to have that title that says manager of customer success. Yep. Because what I’m doing right now is what I wanna learn. I want to learn how to be in a room with directors and set pricing initiatives and figure out forecasting for segments and these things that I’m doing right now that are very, very fun. And then there’s the flip side of it that is very much like, man, if I went and applied for, like, ahead of or whatever title, the first thing they would say is, well, why don’t you have that title now? And there would be a ton of explanation and asterisk of why I have that experience.

Jon Johnson:

And most of the time I get through it, and that’s fine. But, you know, we live in such a, Like, a line by line society that says, well, we have 10,000 people that have, you know, applied for this job. I have to look at the people that have this title just to Narrow It Down a Little Bit. Right? So

Josh Schachter:

Yeah. But, well, that’s also why relationships matter. Yeah. You’re looking for jobs and Absolutely. You know, you are a master master of relationships. And and I think from what you were describing, like, your your background taught you to be able like, for survival, like, you and your family had to build relationships. Right.

Jon Johnson:

Like, I’ll go back. Then, you know, we’re looking at okay. So there I mentioned at the top that there’s 2 roles that I was at for less than 6 months that I kinda took off my resume. Not because of any other reason other than just, they were like layovers in my opinion. Yeah. So I went from Invoca, really looking for kinda like that next step up. Cut, the ShipHawk job. They poached me.

Jon Johnson:

They came at me and they said, man, we’re gonna give you a $100 or whatever. I don’t remember at the time. It was more money than I was making at the time. And I was like, oh, hell, yeah. This is great. And at the at the time, the team had there’s, like, a 150 people in the company. And within 3 months of starting, they laid off 80% of the company. And I was left.

Jon Johnson:

I was left, and I was the only CS person there. And we had the founders, and we had a couple salespeople. ShipHawk is doing great. They’re still, you know, crushing right now, but there is, like, a 2 year period where they really struggle with product market fit and with their market, and they just really, really struggled. And I kinda did everything from onboarding to training to offboarding to everything. Right? I was there for a year, and coming up on the end, I was like, this is going down again. You know what I mean? Like, this is one of those things I was like, there’s gonna be another round of layoffs. I’m Seeing it coming.

Jon Johnson:

I’m looking at the I’m looking at the dollars in the bank account right now. Like, I can see what our run rate run rate is. They’re not restocking LeCroy anymore. Like, this is all hands on deck. Right? So I started applying. And I I I and I the point that I make is since ShipHawk, every job that I’ve gotten has come from, hey. I need something. You know what I mean? Like, I I went to a, like, a CS meetup in Santa Barbara That actually was being held at Invoca.

Jon Johnson:

And, the head of CS from another company called Procore was there, and him and I had known each other from the Invoca days. And and I just told them. I was like, hey. I’m at Shipock. Everybody it’s a small tech company in Santa tech environment in in Santa Barbara. So, you know, they they’re like they knew what was going on. I was like, I I really need a job. You know, and they’re like, hey.

Jon Johnson:

I’ve got an SMB role. It’ll hold you over. There’s growth. Whatever it is. I mean, it was like I took that job and it was half of my salary. Like, it was it was not something it was like going back to work at Starbucks. Right? But it was it was something, and it was benefits, and it was beautiful, and I’m so grateful for it.

Josh Schachter:

And you weren’t afraid to ask. You didn’t let

Jon Johnson:

me know. Afraid to ask. Right? And he I didn’t even inter I barely interviewed. Like, it was just, like, here, just sign the paperwork, and it was beautiful. And I I still love Procore. There’s friends that I have that still work there. I still mentor some of the folks that I work with there. Shout out to Charlotte.

Jon Johnson:

But, from there, it’s like, okay. I did, I think it was, like, 3 or 4 months, and another friend of mine who runs, like, a marketing startup called Giddyup and Ventura. And I had been talking about CS, and he was really starting to refine what CS was at his company. And he brought me on, and he offered me way more money than I I thought I was worth at the time. And it was, like, the biggest pay raise and promotion. You know? So I quit, obviously, I quit Procore very, very quickly, and the team understood. Like, they were so grateful. Like, they paid me out for my bonuses Even though I didn’t finish a core like, they were so graceful grace gracious about it.

Jon Johnson:

And, you know, giddy up, it was my 1st, like, senior title. Was also my 1st kind of, like, dotted line management where, like, help me. What do I do here? Because we had people, and I hired friends that had never been in CS before that it’s like one of my best friends at the time, Matt, was a sales guy at Coke, and he’s still crushing it. And Jacob, one of the other guys, is ahead of CS somewhere else. Like, These people are are doing not that it’s on me, but, like, it was the first time that I was with people that that were striving, that were, like, really pushing to up their skills. And Em, the director at the time, it just is a is an incredible coach. And, you know, from there, it was like my old boss at Invoca reached out to me and said, hey. We need somebody to lead the CS team at Xinyere, and it was another startup.

Jon Johnson:

And they gave me another raise, and I got the team lead role. And it was just like, yeah. I’m gonna do that, and then 2020 happened. Right? I mean, that that’s that us up to the pandemic, and I got

Josh Schachter:

But it was for but but basically, your growth has been from being a good person. Yeah. And I say that knowing I say that knowing you very well as well. 80%. 80. The other 200% is again, that’s for the other podcast. But Yeah. I I wanna I wanna wrap this up soon.

Josh Schachter:

I want to, talk about where you are today. Yeah. And, like, if you like, what’s the goal? So 2 questions. What’s the goal? What’s the goal of this whole thing? You look at, you know, the number of years you got left. What’s the what’s the goal for you? And, like, you mentioned it in passing, but what’s the next step for you personally as far as your career growth?

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. I’ve actually been thinking about this a lot. I would say up until probably splash, which was before, user testing. And then there was like 3 months at PayPal that was the worst experience of my entire fucking life. Just

Josh Schachter:

Okay. Then tell us why.

Jon Johnson:

Tell us why. So I got I got poached, And they I mean, again, somebody reached out to me and, like, hey, we know you. We listen to this podcast, and we’d love that we we want you to do this thing, and they gave me so much money. I mean, like, I should have seen that as a red flag. You know what I mean? It’s one of those things where we’re like, I’m gonna take this, but holy crap.

Josh Schachter:

You’re selling your soul.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. I’m selling my soul. Right? And and within 3 months, like, the leadership, there was just such a mismatch. There was, you know, I mean, I’ll be the 1st to admit, like, like, there was malfeasance going on. There was, like, people were asking me to, like, change numbers on reports, and people were asking and this this is like a sub brand of the big parent company, and come at me if you want. I got the documentation. I talked to HR. Like, I went through the whole thing, like, filed complaints, like, did the whole thing, and I just couldn’t help myself.

Jon Johnson:

I was yeah. Yeah. I mean, when the CEO or somebody says this our our key client has concerns, and this report is gonna give them more So delete the bottom half of this report and then send it to them. Yeah. I’m gonna I’m gonna be like, fuck that. I’m not gonna do that. Yeah. You know? So and then I quit.

Jon Johnson:

Like, I was just like, I’m I’m out. Can’t do that. So since then, you know, with Splash and with user testing, actually the CEO of slash I I worked with at Invoca. So this all kinda ties back to Invoca. And at user testing was the director from Xinyr was it user testing? So there’s just a lot of this kind of, you know, complimentary circles.

Josh Schachter:

Go ahead. It means that you’ve left your relationships on good terms, which is reporting for your long term career, except for PayPal.

Jon Johnson:

Well, but

Josh Schachter:

who knows? Maybe that’ll boomerang at some point. Yeah. Could

Jon Johnson:

be. Yeah. So, you know, I I’ve actually been spending a lot of time thinking about, like, what’s what’s my next title? Like, I’ve never really thought about my when I when I got this job as a principal, I was like, I used to make We had a principal at, at at Splash, and we used to make fun of our title all the time in good fun, but it’s just like, what does that even mean? And now I’m like, this is karma. I want the big the big thing, the big audacious goal is I want my impact to be a force multiplier. Up until this point, I have impacted individuals. And I’ve got a list of a 100 individuals that I can call on for references and that I’m proud of their careers because of feedback that I’ve get. Like, there are some incredible things that I’ve done 1 to 1. And regardless of title or station or anything, I want, I want a larger impact, but I also want it to be a like a like a reflection as well where the masses in influence myself.

Jon Johnson:

Right? And I think, I would I would love to set process and culture for an early stage, SaaS product. Meaning, I wanna hire the 1st CSM, and I wanna set what our health metrics are, and I wanna understand how we make sure that we don’t forget about the customer when we’re changing our processes.

Josh Schachter:

Man, dude, I I wish we were a little bit more advanced at Update. I wish we were Om. I wish we were there needing to build out our our proper CS team. I would snag you up in a heartbeat. Just like stay just just hold on. Hold on for another 9 months.

Jon Johnson:

I’m also like there we’re going through a merger and an acquisition and all these things, and there’s a lot of fun things right now at user testing. Like, I’m not in a rush. It’ll It’ll Come. And I’m having internal conversations too about maybe what that path looks like internally, but I think like more than anything, I think I I want to be a decision maker on, how customers experience a brand. And I’ve got some like, I’m not I don’t necessarily wanna work in housing or legal or any of these kind of specific segments, but I think To be in the room when those decisions are first made to set the standard that will be, you know, compared against for the the following years, that’s what I wanna do. Yeah. And I’d love to do it, like, in in a in an empathetic, humanity driven, your, you know, account or customer or whatever it is.

Josh Schachter:

Yeah. Yeah. Brandt. Sounds like whether that’s whether that’s what you’re suggesting or tour. It sounds like you, you’re going to have some wonderful options ahead of you, John. Okay. Well, you know me. I’m the one that always cuts the show short so that we don’t lose our audience’s attention.

Josh Schachter:

I’m I’m focused on the metrics of, you know, completion rate of of listenership. So, this was fun. This was fun. I, you know, I don’t think we could do this with really anybody else. I think, you know, you’ve got interesting stories that

Jon Johnson:

Thank you.

Josh Schachter:

Really has, has done that for you. And, I

Jon Johnson:

I don’t know.

Josh Schachter:

Should we just do these podcasts 1 on 1 moving forward? Should we bring Christy and Mickey back? I don’t know.

Jon Johnson:

I really like Christy and Mickey. A lot. No. But also, like, you know, I think I think the other side of it is, like, I I I hope that more people have these conversations. Like, The thing that I would say that leads, and I’ll end on this, that leads those relationships is when you meet somebody And there’s a vibe or or like an energy or or even if it’s just a, you know, a boss relationship, you know, individual contributor to boss relationship. I always lead with my story. I always lead with what drives me so that when somebody asks somebody else about me. The first thing that they say isn’t, oh, he gets his job done.

Jon Johnson:

It’s, oh my gosh. He cares. Like, the amount of people, like, you really care about customer success. And at at first, sometimes it’s a backhanded compliment because, let’s be honest, we’re not saving babies here. But, like, start with what drives you, And you will find people who are driven in the same way that you will be able to build something off of, whether it’s a linear path, whether it’s cyclical, whether whatever it is. If if you walk away not knowing who that person is on the other end of the call, then you’ve done yourself a disservice and the other person.

Josh Schachter:

I love it. John Johnson, folks, my esteemed cohost on CS and BS. Usually more responsible for the BS, but today Yeah. It was all CS. Principal customer success manager at User Testing. Key accounts. Of key accounts. Very partition there.

Josh Schachter:

Yeah. Thanks, John. Thanks for sharing your story and being so open about it.

Jon Johnson:

Yeah. Thanks for having me, Josh. I appreciate it.

Josh Schachter:

Alright. And we’re out. Awesome, dude.

Jon Johnson:

We’re out.

Josh Schachter:

It was good.

Jon Johnson:

That was great. Thanks. Yeah. Appreciate it.

Josh Schachter:

Yeah. That was fun. That was fun. Yeah. Yeah.

Jon Johnson:

You’re gonna see a sharp decline halfway through of people being like, guys