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Jon Johnson
Is that your dog Jack?

Josh Schachter
Jesus Christ like right on cue, he wakes up now.

Jon Johnson
Go give him some more drugs.

Mickey Powell
He’s awake now.

Jon Johnson
Wait, we’re live. This is the broadcast.

Josh Schachter
There’s no live. We’re doing it over again. We’ll skip ahead. Hey, everybody. I’m Josh actor, and I’m going to talk really quick right now because I want to get out of the way before my puppy starts barking in the background. Welcome to this edition of unchained. I’m here with John Johnson, Christie falta, Russo, Russo and Mickey Powell. Guys, thanks so much for being on this episode. And welcome back.

Jon Johnson
Oh, what’s up? I think we’re visual now. Right there seeing our faces.

Josh Schachter
They are so yeah, yeah.

Kristi Faltorusso
This is great. Put on my good eyebrows.

Jon Johnson
I got my hair cut this weekend. I actually got I got them all cut. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, very hands fade. Thank you. Yeah,

Kristi Faltorusso
thank you. I like I like my shape. really flattering.

Jon Johnson
Yeah, thank you.

Josh Schachter
I liked it to John. It’s a little bit of like the SOCO is the SoCal style.

Jon Johnson
It is, yeah, yeah, I’m wearing my vans and my skinny jeans still, so the youth would not appreciate it.

Josh Schachter
In this week’s episode edition of see the CES insider report, there’s a few articles that are coming out that caught my eye here that are going to be talked about. The first one is from Daphne Lopez from HubSpot. And she writes a really cool opinion piece about the importance of CSM is redefining their roles, so that they’re not just thought of as being support, right? It’s like CSM, say, hey, you know, ping me for anything, whatever you need, contact me. And then all of a sudden, they get bludgeoned with just support tickets and or support issues and, and kind of the value of the role a little bit is diminished. So I want to know from you guys. How have you approach this with your CS teams in in advising them? Like how do you communicate to your customers, so that you’re setting the proper expectations of the role of a CSM. And they’re not just somebody that’s there to get support issues?

Jon Johnson
I want to hear Christie first.

Kristi Faltorusso
Okay. All right. Very good. I didn’t want to talk over anyone. All right. So I would say the biggest thing for us is setting expectations early on in the partnership. So when we do our partnership kickoff, we’re very deliberate about talking about roles and responsibilities, and not through the lens of like, oh, this person does this, but more so like, Hey, Mr. Customer, if you have this type of issue, or this happens, this is where you’re going to direct that. So I would say setting expectations upfront has always been, I think a big part of us getting it right. But guess what customers don’t always want to follow the rules. So what the team is instructed to do is obviously guide in the moment. And so I know, CSM is we I think the tendency is to just be super helpful, right? Like lean in and customer has problem great Oh, yeah, we’re here to help. We want to do everything we can we actually instruct our team to actually do the opposite, right is to redirect the customers, if it’s a support related issue, we make sure that we are thank you for sending this over in the future, you know, I’ve routed this to support or I’ve entered into the queue, here’s a link to the ticket in the future these types of requests, we ask that you send these directly to support, and here’s why. Right, it’s gonna you’re gonna get a faster response, we’re gonna get it resolved quicker for you, right? Having this in my inbox is just you’re just burning daylight. So we try to add some clear expectations around that. And also the value of getting that right. We don’t we we want to be helpful. But like, honestly, we want to empower the CSM to actually own their role, and not feel like their version to what the customers need to do want to use them for. Right. And that’s not just support. It’s support is professional services, it’s product, it’s leadership. It’s like whatever, right? So we just try to empower the team to say no, that’s outside the scope of my role, but I can help you and here’s how, right, I’m gonna redirect you.

Josh Schachter
That’s the perfect answer. I don’t know where else to go with that. I think you just kind of just put it all out there. And we’re taking it in. Yeah, nailed it. Yeah.

Jon Johnson
where’s the where’s the bell ring? Ding, ding, ding,

Mickey Powell
winner. That was like the old school debate scene. There’s like anything else that

Jon Johnson
I do actually have something to add? Christie, you’re wrong. No. No, I’m kidding. I’m kidding. No, but I actually like, this is something that I really love. Like I saw her post and you know, I feel like two years ago, all of LinkedIn was like, we’re not support and it’s like, but they know, but you’re they who they know. Right? Like we should always be the person like the funneling any type of conversations that we can to the right path. Hopefully they learn at some point to then start going there, but most of the time they won’t. Right. So the thing that I did want to add though, I actually you know, when, when I’m on with customers If I notice a trend of saying like, Hey, man I’ve known I’m noticing that you’re coming to me a lot for the support questions. And you know, you may have noticed that I’m sending you to support a lot. The reason being, is that I like to explain my customer and I say this, like, hey, just so you know, I’m on these meetings all the time. So your request may sit in my inbox for a day or two, maybe more depending on like how things are going. But I want to make sure that you get the the input, you know, the the focus that you need on these requests, so that I’m, I’m verbalizing that with the customer so that it does trigger in their brain to say like, Oh, he’s not ignoring me. Like, I don’t like getting those, hey, I sent this email to you two days ago. And it’s like, well, yeah, but I also told you, I’m sitting on meetings, like this, eight hours a day, six hours a day at times, right? Depending on your capacity.

Josh Schachter
You guys, you guys ever get customers that take advantage that like every little thing, they can easily google it themselves? They can easily just you know, but they it’s just easier for them to write the one sentence note to you.

Jon Johnson
Do you remember? Let me Google that for you? Does anybody remember that website? It’s like my favorite backhanded compliment for the for the listeners, if you don’t know what this is, let me Google that for you.com. And you basically, it records a clip of a link to Google something for them. And it’s just the best thing ever. You can’t use that with too many customers but

Josh Schachter
not Not, not in. I don’t think I saw that on Jeff ruins box. Customer Success toolkit chart.

Kristi Faltorusso
Can I add one more thing to Jonathan because John, I love I love the conversation that you’re having with customers. I will say if you are seeing it come up a lot. Like if you’ve got a customer who just notoriously is sending you these things, I would also lean into it a little bit, right and ask why they might not be getting what they need from support. And so they feel like when they go to you. It’s quicker, it’s more thorough, it gets resolved, that feels escalated. And so when I start to see patterns like that, I lean into it, right? If we’ve done our due diligence and said, Hey, this is who you go to, we’ve kind of led them to order. Here’s that added ticket, whatever. And they’re still not doing it. I guess why? Yeah. And for them, listen, they might have the oh, you know, I’m such a bonehead. I just you know, I completely forgot, I’m so busy. Fine. Great, we’ll just reiterate it. You might also find out that like, you know, actually Christie, I’m just not getting what I need from support. Anytime I email you, it just seems to get a different level of attention, right and different level of escalation internally. So, you know, that could be something also that you bring to support. So I wouldn’t say just continue to ignore it. If it’s happening all the time. Maybe ask a question as to why.

Jon Johnson
Yeah, I love that. It’s all about productivity. Like why the asking the why both to your customers. And internally. I know this has uncovered a lot of gaps with our support team specifically. Not that they’re doing anything wrong, but it’s like, you know, how do you track SLAs? And are you keeping track of all of these response times so it gets complex.

Josh Schachter
There’s a school in France that is offering the first ever bachelor’s degree in customer success. This was just reported it’s gonna be in somebody’s you know, Diego report in LinkedIn here. And it really caught my eye. It’s going to be in the upcoming edition of CES insider as well the report. And I want to know from each you guys, are you buying or are you selling a Customer Success Program? Bachelor’s degree? Yeah. Are you making good?

Mickey Powell
Yeah, is there a basketball number one, I didn’t go to college. So like,

Josh Schachter
that’s what I want to start with you. Yeah.

Mickey Powell
I don’t read good. So I I’m actually curious, like, I’m a huge advocate of customer success, full stop. But second is like, is there a equivalent like vocational edge like vocational style, like focus area degrees? Like for tech sales, tech sales is great for a lot of people. That’s how I got into tech was through sales. So man, I’m why does this get a degree and other things don’t? Is there something fundamentally different that we should be offering a degree?

Jon Johnson
I mean, I think I honestly like I actually think this is, is pretty tone deaf, like, like, I think like, what makes a good salesperson, it’s not the ability to like pick up a phone call and go through like this. It’s understanding and the knowledge of the of the industry, right? So it’s knowing your product, it’s knowing the problems and and that type of thing, right? So like a Master’s of whatever in customer success should be a business degree. Like that is that’s it like you like retention and all of these things like customer success is is is I it’s, I guess it’s not fundamental in the way that an NBA is right now. But I can’t see how there would be a difference or a benefit to having something that is focused on customer success. Because if you did there it all down to business to like that. Good businesses, how to retain How to Grow how to how to solve problems, right. I mean, that’s like the core of a good MBA program. And I don’t see I mean, without like, looking at the at the program, I don’t know that I would look at somebody differently if they held this, this bachelor’s degree versus, you know, an MBA or something.

Josh Schachter
Yeah. John, from from your academic background. If you think about I went to art school. Let’s listen to stupid is gonna be great. Yeah. Now we got we got your dog in the background, by the way. So if we think about from pre K all the way to art school, yeah. What’s

Jon Johnson
the linear

Josh Schachter
path? There was art in pre K two, I’m sure. What’s the number one skill that you’ve taken out of your academics that you’ve applied to Syria, paucity? Curiosity, so so so really, in pre K, you could have stopped education? Yeah,

Jon Johnson
just how to finger paint. Like, it’s truly like, red is cool. Blue is cool, green. Yay. I went for music. It was just a lot of weed and studios. No, but I mean, like, like, this is the thing. And I’m actually like, in the process of talking with my eldest about college, he’s a senior next year in high school, and, and we’re talking through, like, what he wants to get out of college. And there’s like, new paths that exists today, outside of like, a traditional education, where, like, I don’t think that higher level, not, there are some, obviously some outliers for sure. But that the higher education is built to instill a desire to grow and to learn, I think they are based on on tests, and I see it with my little kids to like, they’re really good at filling in bubbles on their on their, you know, Scantrons. And it’s like, but they don’t ask questions. They don’t they’re not instilled in this, like this wonder. And this beauty and this is what I love about having artistic background is that I was like, instilled from an early age, that like, creativity is the greatest success that you can imagine, like, you can dream it, you should be thinking of big things. And, like, I just that’s not really like the higher education now. Unless you go to art school. So

Mickey Powell
yeah, we’re preach. I love that you’re thinking outside the box. Like I have a My daughter is nearly five.

Josh Schachter
She’s also applying to college. Yeah.

Mickey Powell
Right, early admissions to brown. So, no, but I like my wife went to college, she enjoyed college, but we’ve had a frank conversation of like, our daughter might not go to college. Number one, it’s hard to know what’s going to happen in the next 14 years. But number two, so like my wife studied kinesiology, and is now a Gainsight administrator. I didn’t go to college, I worked in retail. And then I got into tech, like, like, those are non traditional paths. And so many people have those non traditional, yes. And so your point, John, like, I made a deal with myself, when I didn’t go to college, I was like, I’m just gonna be a lifelong learner. And I’m just gonna keep learning until I can’t learn any more. And I hope it works out. And long story short, it has worked out. Yeah. So like, we’re not even saving for college. For Logan, we are saving for her. But we’re not doing like a college specific plan. Because we know it’s very possible. She won’t want to, I kind of hope that like when she’s 1819. She’s like, I want to travel for six months. And then I want to start my own business. And I’ll be like, cool. Here’s 50 grand, go do it.

Jon Johnson
Yeah, can I have 50 grand to do that? Yeah.

Mickey Powell
Let me adopt You claim me on my taxes. And we’re perfect.

Josh Schachter
Nikki, still banking on Chachi PT for years from now. He’s, that’s, that’s gonna be just up to university for 20 hours a month.

Jon Johnson
But I do think that this is also like, one of the things that kind of gets missed in customer success is that like, our job should be creative. like it should. But I feel like a lot of practitioners come in expecting to just follow a playbook and check the boxes and move on to the next one. Right? Yeah. You see, like the great Pete the greats of the greats, the goats, if they exist, I don’t know, we all have those sitting with ones on our LinkedIn, she’s right here are the ones that like can think outside the box, and they can like really think through problems strategically and creatively and come to and come to conclusions that are not based on some playbook that their manager kind of put out. Right. And I would a bachelor’s degree teach you that? Or would it just give you a more expensive playbook? That’s the question.

Kristi Faltorusso
What did you say that like experience is what gives you that? Yes, yes.

Okay. So to get that experience, so you’ve got to get an opportunity. Right. And so, I don’t know that I would go the route of like saying that the four year college path that like we need courses on customer success, but there are organizations like I don’t know if you guys are familiar with a course careers. Yep. They build courses exclusively for these different tracks, to help folks who want to have an alternative to go to a four year college and it helps them get the fundamentals around different core competencies, different disciplines, and then helps them land jobs. And these kids out of high school are getting jobs, making close to six figures. And guess what? They don’t have debt.

Jon Johnson
Yeah, that’s great. So that actually says,

Kristi Faltorusso
I think are really useful.

Jon Johnson
Yeah, I think that’s the thing is that so what I would say, just because of the way that my brain works is, our companies or companies perspective, are you more likely to hire somebody who comes out of a four year institution that doesn’t actually equate experience, right? In a specific industry versus one of these boot camps? This is kind of the argument that a lot of the coding boot camps have to is that, like, look, you’re gonna come to us, and you’re only going to focus on coding, so you only pay for coding, and you’re gonna get the same job that you would have gotten if you got a computer science engineer degree, or whatever it is, right? So, you know, like, I, I’m all for it, I just think that I wonder what the industry is like, like, as a hiring manager? Are you more likely to hire somebody with experience in the field? Or somebody who has no experience in the field, but has a degree in this top, you know, in this subject, right? What is the gatekeeping look like for these types of Education’s,

Josh Schachter
I’d be much more likely to look for somebody that that like Chris, he’s describing, it’s come from boot camp, because they’re showing that they just have the gumption to go through it to power through it themselves. You know, there’s nothing wrong with the with the four year degree, bachelor’s degree in customer success, but there’s a little bit more cushion there, right, it’s a little bit fluffier. Whereas, you know, if you’re somebody that’s going through this, this boot camp, you probably don’t have as much means, and you’ve probably had to kind of, you know, to grind. And it shows perseverance, and it shows your conviction and passion for wanting to do this role. So I don’t know, that’s what would shine on the resume for me.

Jon Johnson
Yeah, agreed. I know I a bunch of folks that went through what’s at SV SV Academy, they ran something. And it was, you know, not not a highlight for a good good amount of people. A lot of people went through it. And not a lot of people found jobs through it, right. So looking at what’s like this is actually like, I talked about my art school, I went to the art art institute of Seattle. And at that school doesn’t exist anymore, because they promised jobs in the field it through their recruiting, saying like, Hey, pay us this money, and we’ll get you a job in this field. And those jobs didn’t exist, right. So I think that there is a trick like the to, to advocate for the for the business degree, or whatever it is, like that’s broad, that can apply to anything, right? You can take that anywhere, and people will recognize it. But if it’s a highlight, like if it’s a specialized industry thing, there probably isn’t the same cross functional value that you would have going through that program versus going through higher education.

Josh Schachter
There is an upcoming upcoming mastermind, I think they call a mastermind, webinar success coaching. Yes, from success coaching, yes, it’s actually upcoming in a month from now. But it’s going to be featured also in the report. And it’s called utilizing storytelling for customer success. This goes actually back into the behavioral economics. I’m a big fan of storytelling. I actually wrote about it recently on LinkedIn, it’s always been an Achilles heel for me, but it’s something that I’ve tried to improve on. And I’m wondering, are you guys using storytelling frameworks and techniques

Jon Johnson
while I am after listening to your last podcast, Josh,

Josh Schachter
thank you. Thank you. Well, I mean, are you that’s that that actually wasn’t a that’s not a plug for my podcast, but

Jon Johnson
I mean, yes. I think, Man, this is getting really tricky. I think these days because like, I really miss, I miss sitting in a room with people like I really miss like, a captive audience. And I don’t feel like it’s the same over zoom. Would you agree? Yeah. Like, it’s harder to get like, it’s harder to get that almost kind of like TED Talk vibe, where you can feel engagement and feel energy. When you’re doing this. It’s, you know, we’re friends. So it’s like, we know each other. So we kind of can build some of that repertoire. But you can’t really do that, like with a zoom that you’ve you’ve never met in person. I don’t know. It’s difficult. Mickey, we’re about you.

Mickey Powell
Yeah, I’ve been working. I’ve been working remotely since 2017. And I’ve definitely thought a lot and tried a lot of different things to keep people engaged. And one of the one of the things I do employ is like trying to try to be better at storytelling. Like,

Jon Johnson
what does storytelling mean to you, Mickey?

Mickey Powell
So I’m a big fan of Nancy Duarte. I mean, I haven’t, I’m gonna listen to the Kyndra Hall episode because she’s got great stuff. Nancy forte, she’s the one that actually helped craft the narrative for An Inconvenient Truth outdoors, both thing. And like the way she presented it was just really, like, just really easy to understand of like, you know, you have to stay As fo, and then there’s some, you know, big conflict, and then you make the leap. And then there’s like this trough of just like everything sucks, because it’s so hard. And then that’s where like, the your metal is tested. And then you reach the peak and you’re like, cool, and we celebrate, we have a good time, but then the process repeats. That’s the story arc. So I think about that a lot. And I’ve actually thought about it a lot in terms of customer success. And actually, I think that’s what Josh actually, when we first met, I think I kind of told Josh about this theory that I have of like, we have a customer, and there’s a bunch of people in that company, and they’re all kind of going through their own story arc. And like understanding where they are, is actually is kind of like a an extra advanced tip of like, this person might be like celebrating a big win. So like you should share in that celebration, and other person might be really in the shit just like, they’re not in a good place. They don’t know where to go, they’re struggling. And it may not even be about you or your tool or product. Or somebody might be like, needing you to like, show them what’s possible, and what, why they should take this leap. And I think that’s one thing that we we don’t consciously think about a lot. But we experience it, we’re like, I have to talk to this person in a very different way than I talked to that person and thinking through the framework of like, where are they in the journey? And then who are you to them? So like, are you Yoda? Are you Obi Wan? Are you Darth Maul? Are you Darth Maul? Or you could be right, you could be the antagonist in their story. But I think that that will help you frame like who do you need to be for them?

Josh Schachter
I think there’s two interesting ways that CS can use storytelling. The first way is to tell tell the customer stories about how others have been successful. The founder story, the origin story, the value prop story, and kindred talks about some of those frameworks for storytelling. And the other way is to relay the story of the customer back to the organization internally so that everybody has a vivid understanding of what the customer base is going through. Yeah, so I don’t know, I think it’s incredibly important. I think it’s, it’s a skill that sometimes is underlooked, and undervalued. But for CES, in particular. Because CES is at like the front lines with the customer. They are that bridge, they know uniquely what the customer is going through the emotions, the characters and stakeholders involved. And I just think I just think it’s really important for CS teams to develop that. But I guess my question then for all you guys is, do you think it’s important to have like templated scripted, scripted is a strong term, but like, stories that everybody on the team knows, you know, case study stories that you can present to the customer or your founder story, to align and unifying the messaging.

Jon Johnson
So I kind of I think about it, I was actually processing a little bit while we’re talking to this. I think that they’re part of what I love about our job is that we spend a lot of time discovering, we spend a lot of time we should spend a lot of time listening, and less time talking. And I think, at times, you know, the thing that makes QBRs terrible and the things that make all of these things that we’re kind of used to kind of terrible is that you’re just a talking head kind of running through slides, I like to think of the story that I’m telling is more of the story that I’m writing with my customer. And that it’s a choose your own adventure, like that’s the book, that’s the analogy that I would use is that when we’re sitting in this room, I’m asking them, it’s like, almost like we’re playing Dungeons and Dragons, like if you want to get nerdy on this, right, and it’s like, I’ve got the script, and I’ve got the ark, and I’ve got kind of the template in the map. But we’re gonna fill in all the colors as we go. And they’re gonna talk to me about these pain points. And I’m gonna say that’s, that’s actually really interesting. And to your point around scripts and templates, I think that it’s important to have a broad sense of your, obviously your company and your mission and your goal, so that you can apply Oh, okay, well, I need to guide this person down this pathway, or they’re going down this pathway on their own, and I want to I want to capture their whole thing, right, so that I can then elaborate that story elsewhere, outwards or inwards. So I think that as long as we keep that hat on that the story is always being written with our customers, and that it is not a one sided, like passive choice to say, here’s your story. This is the book I’m going to talk and you’re gonna listen. And it’s like, let’s actually like create this together, and you get some really compelling conversations and you get some really great value with customers out of those.

Josh Schachter
I like that approach. Christy, what’s the founder story, the origin story of client success?

Kristi Faltorusso
Do you know a long one?

Jon Johnson
Is it a villain story or a hero’s? Yeah,

Josh Schachter
give us the Cliff Notes.

Kristi Faltorusso
I don’t know how many people notice about Dave but Dave used to be who’s Sorry, not sorry. Sorry. Sorry. You’re right. I forgot that there’s other people besides the three of us on this call three, four. Hi, I’m Dave Blake, the CEO of client success. Before starting clients success actually worked at Adobe. And he was a leader of, you know, customer success for enterprise customers there. And he had actually used another software that’s still currently in the market, and found it extremely challenging to do his job in a simple way. He felt like the software he was using was too complex, it didn’t have a lot of features, he needed to just like, do the basics. And so when he left Adobe, he decided to go out and he was on a mission to go build what he didn’t have. And so he’s actually think maybe the only or maybe with the exception of one other company has, the CEO is actually a former practitioner in customer success, who’s built and designed the technology. And so I think it’s kind of something that makes Client Success special is that Dave, myself and others in the organization are all former Customer Success practitioners, right? We come from this world, we’ve all used different tools. And we know what we need to be successful in doing our job. Cool. You’re behind it. But

Jon Johnson
that’s great. I love this good.

Kristi Faltorusso
I don’t I don’t know that a lot of people know that about Dave like, though. And I think it’s interesting, because I do think that if you’ve a founder who comes from this space, as opposed to just someone who was in sales or product before, right, and just decided to go do something cool and different, like he actually he experienced the same pain or customers experience and can talk to that

Jon Johnson
we talked about before where it’s like how many consultants have never been CSMs. And they’re like coaching people on how to build functional CSM teams, right? It’s like, there’s pluses and minuses.

Kristi Faltorusso
I would love to talk about the what’s happening in the world right now with people just sharing things that lack personal experience. Yeah. And they’re relying on anecdotes from the experience of others. Yeah.

Josh Schachter
The mushrooming of, of consultancy in the Customer Success world. There’s a reason by the way that I don’t speak as much as you guys in this podcast. I don’t I don’t pretend. I don’t pretend to know the answers to see us. I’ve never been one myself. So. But Dave should, Dave should promote that? Because I think it’s like people want that personal touch. The other person you’re talking about, by the way, is is Edward Chu. Right from catalyst. And I know Edward Christie has given me this look like

Kristi Faltorusso
I’m just like, I just didn’t feel necessary to like name any names that any buddy else in the space? No, but

Josh Schachter
um, but I’m just saying because because Edwards in New York, and I’m in New York, and, you know, we’re buds as well. And but so I go to a lot of like live events. And he’s always telling that story, which I think is smart and effective. Right? Yeah. So cool. Well,

Jon Johnson
Nancy Duarte, you guys talk about this. But the one of my favorite things that, like resources is is the Harvard Business Review the quick reads, and if you want to think about like storytelling, or whatever, she’s got a quick book called persuasive presentations. And it’s how to like interweave storytelling into how we give presentations. It’s, it’s pretty old, but it’s like, it’s a great little pamphlet kind of handbook to read. So didn’t there is one other post in here? I was actually reading because I read it too. Do we have time for one more? Yeah. This is this is interesting. And I actually want I want to know Christy’s perspective on this just because you are leading these things. But how Carly Edgar you know, has this kind of presentation or post on how to become more strategic with customers. And I think that’s a word that gets thrown around a lot in our industry. Like, I’m a strategic customer success. I talk about strategy. And it’s like, What the hell does that mean? Like, just because we’re all trusted advisors, we get to be strategic? Right? How many buzzwords can we throw? Finish? I know you just like you’re both of your eyebrows just shot straight up. Anyways. Yeah. painted on Demo button. Yeah, there’s a little button. Be surprised. Yes. So you know that she has six easy ways to uplevel your customer conversations with questions. We won’t go into the questions. It’s a great post, you should read it. But also like, I would love to hear your thoughts on what what how you coach about strategic conversations, how you identify when a strategic conversation is valuable versus when a tactical conversation is valuable, at least from a leadership perspective.

Kristi Faltorusso
Yeah, I will tell you that the number one thing that drives me crazy is when leaders give feedback that they that their CSMs or whomever needs to be more strategic, and they give no guidance. Because that doesn’t mean anything literally doesn’t mean anything and I actually said they just got off a call with a woman last week. Who was just let go from her job. They were about ready to put their on a pip and they let her decide if she wanted to just leave. And the feedback from her leader was just that she wasn’t strategic enough. And I told her in coaching and I said, I need you to go press going to those meetings, go press and ask exactly what that means. And the leader couldn’t articulate it and gave like, really poor vague examples that, in my opinion, not grounds for termination. And it was just so disgusting. And I see it all the time. So okay, let me go back to answering your question. Now that I just went on my little rant. If you’re a leader, and you’re telling your your team or whomever they need to be more strategic, and you’re not leaning in to show them or teach them how to do that, or what your expectations are, shame on you.